6 ms·

Piracy and Fraud Propelled the US Industrial Revolution

71 points by nikcub 14y ago

friendly_chap 14y ago
We already know the whole world is a creepy demagogue joke, do we? I find this article interesting, but extremely unsurprising.
codex 14y ago
I don't think it has ever been disputed that piracy helps the pirates, as is confirmed by this article. I think most of the debate has centered around whether it helps society as a whole. In some ways the patent system discourages the industrial espionage described here by enforcing protection in return for disclosure, but could also be interpreted as the haves suppressing the have nots.
- forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
  I believe there is not debate at all that not respecting patents helps societies that have not developed technology as a whole. If it not were for USA importing machinery and not respecting foreign "IP", USA would be a de facto colony of foreign nations. They will only be able to sell raw source materials very cheap, and will have to import very expensive machines, while being dominated by war with industrialized countries. E.g. Why the US today invades Irak or Afganistan to get cheap goods, like oil?, because those countries don't have industry on their own to defend itself from the drones, tanks or missiles of the invader. They could only use light weapons against cameras, satellites and aircraft carriers.
  - ajuc 14y ago
    Yep. That's the point people criticizing piracy in less developed countries tend to overlook - without piracy the current difference between a few innovative countries and everybody else will be only growing. You cannot catch up after such a big delay without breaking the rules (rules set by the countries that are leading, btw, and have no business in helping their possible competitors). Internet, piracy, and complete disregard towards patents is what makes developing countries possible. Otherways we would only have developed countries and their economical colonies.
- joseflavio 14y ago
  The problem is that US want keep less developed countries as de facto colonies, the same way UK tried to keep US as a colony. I am pretty sure that patents are good for the American Society, but not for the poor countries... On top of this US tries to convince with Propaganda that patents are "rights" or "property", while in truth they are artificial monopolies only possible through strong state regulation.
  - emn13 14y ago
    I don't believe patents and copyrights help even the US. They help a very select few that have the means and skills to use the system. The average person, and even the average creator loses out. Creativity for artistic purposes (or for matters of conviction) seems to have thrived since well before the concept of IP; and while the kind of content that's produced now is different (e.g. huge mass-market films), I don't believe it's intrinsically better or better enough to impose such restrictions on everyone. So the argument would have to be carried based on the more mundane practical benefits - useful devices people actually have that they would not otherwise have had, say. But here too it seems that such laws strongly favor the creation of monopolies or oligopolies and don't favor long-term positive developments (e.g. apple, microsoft, google). I.e. it's mostly a weapon to prevent competition, not an incentive to promote the useful arts. Hence we get these long periods of stagnation between disruptive new businesses - the existing oligopolists are naturally very good at keeping out newcomers that they need to be disruptive to actually have a chance. That's not a good thing; it's a signal that there's not enough competition and development normally. It's well known that small, vocal interests are very effective at getting what they want; so it shouldn't come as a surprise for the balance to have shifted to the overall detriment of society and in favor of rent-seekers. I think of it as a kind of like distorting farming subsidies + tariffs. It's hard to get rid of em without hurting somebody, but that doesn't mean they're not doing harm.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    > The problem is that US want keep less developed countries as de facto colonies, I don't see how this is a problem for the U.S. The U.S. should, and indeed arguably has a moral obligation, to push for policies that benefit its citizens. > On top of this US tries to convince with Propaganda that patents are "rights" or "property", while in truth they are artificial monopolies only possible through strong state regulation. This is no more or less true than for any kind of property right. Without strong state regulation, the only "property right" you have is to whatever you can physically defend. I'd imagine most people posting here would not be in the same place in the overall hierarchy in such a world...
Surio 14y ago
This article seems like an excerpt/promo for the author's new book, which seems to be an interesting read, http://www.amazon.com/Smuggler-Nation-Illicit-Trade-America/dp/0199746885 http://www.amazon.com/Smuggler-Nation-Illicit-Trade-America/... and has garnered a few favourable reviews so far. P.S: Is there a way to provide inline URL linking in HN threads that I am not aware of?
- SkyMarshal 14y ago
  Nope. People usually just do something like this [1] for multiple urls [2]. [1]: http://www.amazon.com/Smuggler-Nation-Illicit-Trade-America/dp/0199746885 http://www.amazon.com/Smuggler-Nation-Illicit-Trade-America/... [2]: http://news.ycombinator.com/ http://news.ycombinator.com/
  - Surio 14y ago
    Thanks. It's what I also do. Wondering if there was a better way. Seems not. :-)
alexott 14y ago
The similar for Germany: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-law-the-real-reason-for-germany-s-industrial-expansion-a-710976.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-l...
- lorenzfx 14y ago
  There is also an interesting presentation of the author of the book reviewed. It has some more detailed information on the book market in Great Britain and Germany in 18th Century in regard to copyright. Conclusion: "Copyright […] harmed the average author." http://www.scribd.com/doc/46966863/Copyright-and-structure-of-authors’-earnings http://www.scribd.com/doc/46966863/Copyright-and-structure-o...
GHFigs 14y ago
The history is interesting, but the author's attempt--in the first two sentences--to frame the whole thing as an instance of hypocrisy strikes me as flimsy. If you're trying to invalidate an argument, you can't rest your case on the observation that someone is saying "do as I say, not as I did". It doesn't work when you're a teenager arguing with your parents and it doesn't work when there's such a gleaming and contemporaneous counter-example sitting just a few degrees South of your present attention. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States
- PavlovsCat 14y ago
  If you're trying to invalidate an argument, you can't rest your case on the observation that someone is saying "do as I say, not as I did". What argument is the author trying to invalidate here? It simply points these things out which are commonly glossed over, with no conclusions drawn from them that I can see. Pointing out hypocrisy is perfectly fine and no fallacy in itself?
  - geon 14y ago
    I would say there is no hypocrisy, since the people of the industrial revolution are long dead. Being born in the same nation 200 years later doesn't make you bound by the opinions of your ancestors. Likewise, the germans of today should not be considered evil Nazis, even though some of the original Nazis are still alive.
    - PavlovsCat 14y ago
      That doesn't answer my question as to what argument is supposedly attempted to be invalidated by pointing out hipocrisy. But to answer anyway: being born into the same nation doesn't have as much to do with it as inheriting, as person, as corporation, or even as nation, the fortune/power accumulated, by means which are then made forbidden to others. It's not about any random American citizen, so pointing out the fact that "they aren't all hypocrites" is a strawman; nobody ever claimed they are.
monochromatic 14y ago
“Borrow,” of course, really meant “steal,” since there was certainly no intention of giving the inventions back. No, it did not mean "steal." They were not depriving the inventors of their creations, but using the ideas. What would it even mean to give the inventions back?
- sp332 14y ago
  Thomas Jefferson put it this way: If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea.... He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper [candle] at mine, receives light without darkening me. http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12.html http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12....
polskibus 14y ago
happened between east and west coast too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Patents_Company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Patents_Company
WayneDB 14y ago
The full, non-mobile, nicely formatted version is here - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-01/piracy-and-fraud-propelled-the-u-s-industrial-revolution.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-01/piracy-and-fraud-pr...

71 points by nikcub 14y ago

We already know the whole world is a creepy demagogue joke, do we? I find this article interesting, but extremely unsurprising.

codex 14y ago

I don't think it has ever been disputed that piracy helps the pirates, as is confirmed by this article. I think most of the debate has centered around whether it helps society as a whole. In some ways the patent system discourages the industrial espionage described here by enforcing protection in return for disclosure, but could also be interpreted as the haves suppressing the have nots.

forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
I believe there is not debate at all that not respecting patents helps societies that have not developed technology as a whole. If it not were for USA importing machinery and not respecting foreign "IP", USA would be a de facto colony of foreign nations. They will only be able to sell raw source materials very cheap, and will have to import very expensive machines, while being dominated by war with industrialized countries. E.g. Why the US today invades Irak or Afganistan to get cheap goods, like oil?, because those countries don't have industry on their own to defend itself from the drones, tanks or missiles of the invader. They could only use light weapons against cameras, satellites and aircraft carriers.
- ajuc 14y ago
  Yep. That's the point people criticizing piracy in less developed countries tend to overlook - without piracy the current difference between a few innovative countries and everybody else will be only growing. You cannot catch up after such a big delay without breaking the rules (rules set by the countries that are leading, btw, and have no business in helping their possible competitors). Internet, piracy, and complete disregard towards patents is what makes developing countries possible. Otherways we would only have developed countries and their economical colonies.
joseflavio 14y ago
The problem is that US want keep less developed countries as de facto colonies, the same way UK tried to keep US as a colony. I am pretty sure that patents are good for the American Society, but not for the poor countries... On top of this US tries to convince with Propaganda that patents are "rights" or "property", while in truth they are artificial monopolies only possible through strong state regulation.
- emn13 14y ago
  I don't believe patents and copyrights help even the US. They help a very select few that have the means and skills to use the system. The average person, and even the average creator loses out. Creativity for artistic purposes (or for matters of conviction) seems to have thrived since well before the concept of IP; and while the kind of content that's produced now is different (e.g. huge mass-market films), I don't believe it's intrinsically better or better enough to impose such restrictions on everyone. So the argument would have to be carried based on the more mundane practical benefits - useful devices people actually have that they would not otherwise have had, say. But here too it seems that such laws strongly favor the creation of monopolies or oligopolies and don't favor long-term positive developments (e.g. apple, microsoft, google). I.e. it's mostly a weapon to prevent competition, not an incentive to promote the useful arts. Hence we get these long periods of stagnation between disruptive new businesses - the existing oligopolists are naturally very good at keeping out newcomers that they need to be disruptive to actually have a chance. That's not a good thing; it's a signal that there's not enough competition and development normally. It's well known that small, vocal interests are very effective at getting what they want; so it shouldn't come as a surprise for the balance to have shifted to the overall detriment of society and in favor of rent-seekers. I think of it as a kind of like distorting farming subsidies + tariffs. It's hard to get rid of em without hurting somebody, but that doesn't mean they're not doing harm.
- rayiner 14y ago
  > The problem is that US want keep less developed countries as de facto colonies, I don't see how this is a problem for the U.S. The U.S. should, and indeed arguably has a moral obligation, to push for policies that benefit its citizens. > On top of this US tries to convince with Propaganda that patents are "rights" or "property", while in truth they are artificial monopolies only possible through strong state regulation. This is no more or less true than for any kind of property right. Without strong state regulation, the only "property right" you have is to whatever you can physically defend. I'd imagine most people posting here would not be in the same place in the overall hierarchy in such a world...

Surio 14y ago

This article seems like an excerpt/promo for the author's new book, which seems to be an interesting read, http://www.amazon.com/Smuggler-Nation-Illicit-Trade-America/dp/0199746885 http://www.amazon.com/Smuggler-Nation-Illicit-Trade-America/... and has garnered a few favourable reviews so far. P.S: Is there a way to provide inline URL linking in HN threads that I am not aware of?

SkyMarshal 14y ago
Nope. People usually just do something like this [1] for multiple urls [2]. [1]: http://www.amazon.com/Smuggler-Nation-Illicit-Trade-America/dp/0199746885 http://www.amazon.com/Smuggler-Nation-Illicit-Trade-America/... [2]: http://news.ycombinator.com/ http://news.ycombinator.com/
- Surio 14y ago
  Thanks. It's what I also do. Wondering if there was a better way. Seems not. :-)

alexott 14y ago

The similar for Germany: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-law-the-real-reason-for-germany-s-industrial-expansion-a-710976.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-l...

lorenzfx 14y ago
There is also an interesting presentation of the author of the book reviewed. It has some more detailed information on the book market in Great Britain and Germany in 18th Century in regard to copyright. Conclusion: "Copyright […] harmed the average author." http://www.scribd.com/doc/46966863/Copyright-and-structure-of-authors’-earnings http://www.scribd.com/doc/46966863/Copyright-and-structure-o...

GHFigs 14y ago

The history is interesting, but the author's attempt--in the first two sentences--to frame the whole thing as an instance of hypocrisy strikes me as flimsy. If you're trying to invalidate an argument, you can't rest your case on the observation that someone is saying "do as I say, not as I did". It doesn't work when you're a teenager arguing with your parents and it doesn't work when there's such a gleaming and contemporaneous counter-example sitting just a few degrees South of your present attention. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States

PavlovsCat 14y ago
If you're trying to invalidate an argument, you can't rest your case on the observation that someone is saying "do as I say, not as I did". What argument is the author trying to invalidate here? It simply points these things out which are commonly glossed over, with no conclusions drawn from them that I can see. Pointing out hypocrisy is perfectly fine and no fallacy in itself?
- geon 14y ago
  I would say there is no hypocrisy, since the people of the industrial revolution are long dead. Being born in the same nation 200 years later doesn't make you bound by the opinions of your ancestors. Likewise, the germans of today should not be considered evil Nazis, even though some of the original Nazis are still alive.
  - PavlovsCat 14y ago
    That doesn't answer my question as to what argument is supposedly attempted to be invalidated by pointing out hipocrisy. But to answer anyway: being born into the same nation doesn't have as much to do with it as inheriting, as person, as corporation, or even as nation, the fortune/power accumulated, by means which are then made forbidden to others. It's not about any random American citizen, so pointing out the fact that "they aren't all hypocrites" is a strawman; nobody ever claimed they are.

monochromatic 14y ago

“Borrow,” of course, really meant “steal,” since there was certainly no intention of giving the inventions back. No, it did not mean "steal." They were not depriving the inventors of their creations, but using the ideas. What would it even mean to give the inventions back?

sp332 14y ago
Thomas Jefferson put it this way: If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea.... He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper [candle] at mine, receives light without darkening me. http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12.html http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12....

polskibus 14y ago

happened between east and west coast too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Patents_Company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Patents_Company

WayneDB 14y ago

The full, non-mobile, nicely formatted version is here - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-01/piracy-and-fraud-propelled-the-u-s-industrial-revolution.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-01/piracy-and-fraud-pr...