5 ms·

> It sucks. It's a form of psychic bribery. That seems like a terribly cynical way to view the idea that, if you're nice to people, they will be nice to you.

by Cushman 14y ago

javajosh 14y ago
>That seems like a terribly cynical way to view the idea that, if you're nice to people, they will be nice to you. I'm saying that if you're nice to someone who wants nothing more than an excuse to hurt you, and who has no compunction about doing so, then perhaps you won't get hurt. The end goal is not for them to be nice to you. The goal is for them to refrain from making your life a living hell.
- Cushman 14y ago
  I just think there's another way to look at this situation. Have you seen The Incredibles? The scene towards the beginning when Mr. Incredible helps the little old lady cheat the insurance system? I think most bureaucrats want to be that person. They want to give the good guy a break; they want to cut people who try hard a little bit of slack. It means more work for them, since they need to spend their own time to make sure those people followed instructions, and there's only so much energy you can give each one. Not only that, but they know the ways the bureaucracy was built a little loosely— the ways to get around things, not ways you should use all the time, but sometimes you have to. That's the power bureaucrats have, and generally, they want to use it for good. They want to help that little old lady get her check. They want to let that kid go home when his dad dies. And yeah, they want to take a little time off themselves, but who doesn't? What they don't want to do is go out of their way to help some random idiot who just wasn't paying attention to his own shit, who seems to think because you're paid to process paperwork it's your job to advocate for him, without so much as pretending like he's asking you for a favor. Screw that guy. And, seriously, what are we asking here? I'm reminded of an Ani Difranco quote: “Maybe you don't like your job. Maybe you didn't get enough sleep. Nobody likes their job; nobody got enough sleep. Maybe you just had the worst day of your life. You know there's no escape, and there's no excuse, so just suck up and be nice.”
  - javajosh 14y ago
    God, I wish it was the way you describe it. Unfortunately, Mr. Incredible is the exception, not the rule. Most flunkies really don't care about the person in front of them - at least not enough to risk their job (which Mr. Incredible was doing every time he helped someone). Additionally, it has been my experience that American cops are not shy about showing overwhelming force. Nor are they shy about pushing the boundaries of what they can do to you, what they can cite or arrest you for. Nor do they have any compunction about tricking you into giving them more access or more information than they have a right to. We live in a society which has somehow learned to ascribe to the philosophy that you should use your power to it's full extent. Discretion is a sucker's game. The MO is: show up to the scene with overwhelming force, and if anyone gives you an excuse, arrest them. Cite them. Take their stuff. Cost them time and money. Punish them. Or, for a federal prosecutor: ignore common sense and threaten a non-violent person with decades in federal prison to get your desired plea-deal. There is no prize for discretion, only convictions.
    - smsm42 14y ago
      They're definitely not shy and they talk about it openly (starting 1:30): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eYmDEIH4H3A http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=e... They consider their weapons and their other privileges a means to "intimidate and show power". And with this approach, no wonder when they get a chance, they do show power.
    - Semaphor 14y ago
      I think you are both right. They are humans, who obviously come with all kinda of attitudes. Now it's probably slightly worse because of a position of specific power. I've met cops that didn't really care, I met some that were super friendly and a few not so friendlies, one couple arrived at a party because of a noise complaint right at midnight when a lot of people were cheering happy birthday. Tried as I could (I was talking to them as their English and the Americans German both weren't great), they didn't understand that yes, that's louder than the rest of the party was before and after and were just assholish all around. At the resident registration office I had case workers that tried to made me feel bad for everything and just wanted to exercise power as well as those that helped me avoid fees I would have otherwise had to pay. The worst person was the doctor at the conscription office but as that was my only contact with a military person ever, it's not much of a sample size ;) So in closing again: they are just humans. And just like humans they often can be manipulated into helping you.
- snowwrestler 14y ago
  > someone who wants nothing more than an excuse to hurt you, and who has no compunction about doing so Maybe a few government employees are like that, but most are just regular people who are trying to get through a day of work like anyone else. They are perfectly willing to be nice to people who are nice to them. I know people who work for the government, so I get to hear about the flip side of what you are saying. Some folks come into any government office with a preconceived notion something like, "This stupid government drone is just waiting to fuck me over." This frame of mind does not typically produce a warm and friendly affect.
baddox 14y ago
But not at all untrue.
waterlesscloud 14y ago
It's not a balanced transaction. You have to ingratiate yourself to them to have them treat you properly, and the only reason for that is their authority. Psychic bribery is a fine term for it.
pyre 14y ago
Not that cynical. It's more than just "being nice to people." You could end up annoying someone in such a position just by being nice, but asking too many questions. Maybe they had a bad day, and you're smiling too much.
tikhonj 14y ago
It's a subtly but critically different idea: unless you're nice to people, they will be distinctly not nice to you. This is a unfortunate fact in general: even if somebody is not particularly nice to you, you should still be nice in return. However, it is only a real problem if the distinctly not-nice person is in a position of power as in this example.
- tomjen3 14y ago
  Unless they hold power over you, don't be nice to anybody who isn't nice to you. Iterated prisoners dilemma: if you aren't willing to defect, they will every time. If they hold power over you, smile until you stab them in the back.
  - gknoy 14y ago
    If you aren't nice to someone that isn't nice to you first, and they do the same, who would ever be nice to one another?
    - lmm 14y ago
      Indeed; the successful prisoners' dilemma strategy is: you're nice to people to start with, but you turn nasty as soon as they do.
shpxnvz 14y ago
You're missing the critical aspect of these interactions: one of the persons is an agent of the state acting under the color of law. The victim is not being nice out of courtesy. They are being nice to avoid having force against them escalated. Were it a private citizen offering the same deal - avoidance of coercive force in exchange for pleasantries we'd call it extortion.

> It sucks. It's a form of psychic bribery. That seems like a terribly cynical way to view the idea that, if you're nice to people, they will be nice to you.

by Cushman 14y ago

> It sucks. It's a form of psychic bribery. That seems like a terribly cynical way to view the idea that, if you're nice to people, they will be nice to you.

javajosh 14y ago

>That seems like a terribly cynical way to view the idea that, if you're nice to people, they will be nice to you. I'm saying that if you're nice to someone who wants nothing more than an excuse to hurt you, and who has no compunction about doing so, then perhaps you won't get hurt. The end goal is not for them to be nice to you. The goal is for them to refrain from making your life a living hell.

Cushman 14y ago
I just think there's another way to look at this situation. Have you seen The Incredibles? The scene towards the beginning when Mr. Incredible helps the little old lady cheat the insurance system? I think most bureaucrats want to be that person. They want to give the good guy a break; they want to cut people who try hard a little bit of slack. It means more work for them, since they need to spend their own time to make sure those people followed instructions, and there's only so much energy you can give each one. Not only that, but they know the ways the bureaucracy was built a little loosely— the ways to get around things, not ways you should use all the time, but sometimes you have to. That's the power bureaucrats have, and generally, they want to use it for good. They want to help that little old lady get her check. They want to let that kid go home when his dad dies. And yeah, they want to take a little time off themselves, but who doesn't? What they don't want to do is go out of their way to help some random idiot who just wasn't paying attention to his own shit, who seems to think because you're paid to process paperwork it's your job to advocate for him, without so much as pretending like he's asking you for a favor. Screw that guy. And, seriously, what are we asking here? I'm reminded of an Ani Difranco quote: “Maybe you don't like your job. Maybe you didn't get enough sleep. Nobody likes their job; nobody got enough sleep. Maybe you just had the worst day of your life. You know there's no escape, and there's no excuse, so just suck up and be nice.”
- javajosh 14y ago
  God, I wish it was the way you describe it. Unfortunately, Mr. Incredible is the exception, not the rule. Most flunkies really don't care about the person in front of them - at least not enough to risk their job (which Mr. Incredible was doing every time he helped someone). Additionally, it has been my experience that American cops are not shy about showing overwhelming force. Nor are they shy about pushing the boundaries of what they can do to you, what they can cite or arrest you for. Nor do they have any compunction about tricking you into giving them more access or more information than they have a right to. We live in a society which has somehow learned to ascribe to the philosophy that you should use your power to it's full extent. Discretion is a sucker's game. The MO is: show up to the scene with overwhelming force, and if anyone gives you an excuse, arrest them. Cite them. Take their stuff. Cost them time and money. Punish them. Or, for a federal prosecutor: ignore common sense and threaten a non-violent person with decades in federal prison to get your desired plea-deal. There is no prize for discretion, only convictions.
  - smsm42 14y ago
    They're definitely not shy and they talk about it openly (starting 1:30): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eYmDEIH4H3A http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=e... They consider their weapons and their other privileges a means to "intimidate and show power". And with this approach, no wonder when they get a chance, they do show power.
  - Semaphor 14y ago
    I think you are both right. They are humans, who obviously come with all kinda of attitudes. Now it's probably slightly worse because of a position of specific power. I've met cops that didn't really care, I met some that were super friendly and a few not so friendlies, one couple arrived at a party because of a noise complaint right at midnight when a lot of people were cheering happy birthday. Tried as I could (I was talking to them as their English and the Americans German both weren't great), they didn't understand that yes, that's louder than the rest of the party was before and after and were just assholish all around. At the resident registration office I had case workers that tried to made me feel bad for everything and just wanted to exercise power as well as those that helped me avoid fees I would have otherwise had to pay. The worst person was the doctor at the conscription office but as that was my only contact with a military person ever, it's not much of a sample size ;) So in closing again: they are just humans. And just like humans they often can be manipulated into helping you.
snowwrestler 14y ago
> someone who wants nothing more than an excuse to hurt you, and who has no compunction about doing so Maybe a few government employees are like that, but most are just regular people who are trying to get through a day of work like anyone else. They are perfectly willing to be nice to people who are nice to them. I know people who work for the government, so I get to hear about the flip side of what you are saying. Some folks come into any government office with a preconceived notion something like, "This stupid government drone is just waiting to fuck me over." This frame of mind does not typically produce a warm and friendly affect.

baddox 14y ago

But not at all untrue.

waterlesscloud 14y ago

It's not a balanced transaction. You have to ingratiate yourself to them to have them treat you properly, and the only reason for that is their authority. Psychic bribery is a fine term for it.

pyre 14y ago

Not that cynical. It's more than just "being nice to people." You could end up annoying someone in such a position just by being nice, but asking too many questions. Maybe they had a bad day, and you're smiling too much.

tikhonj 14y ago

It's a subtly but critically different idea: unless you're nice to people, they will be distinctly not nice to you. This is a unfortunate fact in general: even if somebody is not particularly nice to you, you should still be nice in return. However, it is only a real problem if the distinctly not-nice person is in a position of power as in this example.

tomjen3 14y ago
Unless they hold power over you, don't be nice to anybody who isn't nice to you. Iterated prisoners dilemma: if you aren't willing to defect, they will every time. If they hold power over you, smile until you stab them in the back.
- gknoy 14y ago
  If you aren't nice to someone that isn't nice to you first, and they do the same, who would ever be nice to one another?
  - lmm 14y ago
    Indeed; the successful prisoners' dilemma strategy is: you're nice to people to start with, but you turn nasty as soon as they do.

shpxnvz 14y ago

You're missing the critical aspect of these interactions: one of the persons is an agent of the state acting under the color of law. The victim is not being nice out of courtesy. They are being nice to avoid having force against them escalated. Were it a private citizen offering the same deal - avoidance of coercive force in exchange for pleasantries we'd call it extortion.