4 ms·

Blockchain.info gets you a free wallet. Signed client-side so they can't mess with it. You don't need to run the "client" (which is really a "node") at all. The

Blockchain.info gets you a free wallet. Signed client-side so they can't mess with it. You don't need to run the "client" (which is really a "node") at all. The fact that this is not communicated well is a communication problem more than a technical one. localbitcoins.com if you want to buy some from anyone in the neighborhood.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
moxie 14y ago
The thing that makes bitcoin different than other online payment systems or virtual currencies is that it's distributed. That property, however, is also what makes it difficult to use. It's true that if you re-centralize things by trusting someone else with your wallet, or outsourcing block chain verification to a central party, then it can be quite usable. From what I can tell, nobody is entirely comfortable with the direction that's headed, which is why there's a lot of handwaving about things like javascript-based cryptography, which just doesn't work. localbitcoins is cool, but a friend bought some BTC off me the other day, and it took over an hour (for the above reasons). Don't get me wrong, I think all of this is really interesting and amazing in a lot of ways, but not "easy peasy" as the parent commenter was saying.
- patrikr 14y ago
  > javascript-based cryptography, which just doesn't work LOL... Blockchain.info has over 120,000 users which disagree with you. As the old saying goes, "the dogs bark, but the caravan goes on".
  - moxie 14y ago
    Please see any of the very many recent in-depth discussions about the security of webapp-based cryptography. Sure, it "works" in the sense that it's very easy to use, but it is by no means secure. I'm sure all of those other "online wallet" services that lost or disappeared with everyone's BTC also had plenty of users.
    - HappMacDonald 14y ago
      So use the Blockchain.info browser extension, instead.
    - BladeMcCool 14y ago
      you realize that they dont have your private key right? and that you can verify the javascript wasnt poisoned by having a hash of the legit javascript and comparing it? with a handy toolbar?
    - Charybdis 14y ago
      Moxie, given your background in cryptography, do you have any ideas on how the Bitcoin community could improve the user experience without compromising security?
  - lectrick 14y ago
    There is so much misunderstanding around cryptography. Steps To Hack Blockchain.info 1) Discover a zero-day exploit in the operating system that Blockchain.info runs on 2) Hack it 3) Compromise the javascript that it delivers to the client 4) For the next 10 minutes or so (or up to the point the hack is discovered), anyone who logs into Blockchain.info via the web app and types in their password is compromised. Period. Now, granted, this won't affect EVERYONE who has a Blockchain.info account, only the ones who log in while it's hacked.
- shredfvz 14y ago
  > The thing that makes bitcoin different than other online payment systems or virtual currencies is that it's distributed. That property, however, is also what makes it difficult to use. This to me highlights just about everything there is to know about Bitcoin. People are too easily turned off by the amount of effort it takes to properly command a Bitcoin wallet. At least with the traditional banking system, a big bank is there to lend you a hand should you need anything or should something go wrong with one of your transactions. But there's a big tradeoff: when you utilize the traditional banking system, you must entrust at least some of your wealth to an entity you have absolutely zero control over. Right now that's fine, but personally I like the idea of keeping external dependencies to a minimum, especially when it comes to money. The price of Bitcoin remains affordable for now, and will continue to do so as long as people don't have a compelling reason to get off their behinds. For some perspective, the Bitcoin market cap is $332M. At a $1000M ($1B) market cap and ~12.8M BTC in circulation, the price per Bitcoin would be roughly $78. At a $10B market cap it would be $780. The market cap of Facebook is $68.7B. When you compare a global financial system with censorship resistant properties (Bitcoin), and give it a valuation six times less than a global social network (Facebook), 1 BTC is still worth $780. If Bitcoin is 60X less valuable to the world than Facebook, it's $78/coin. 120X less valuable and it's $39/coin. Meaning if Bitcoin truly provides the world less than 1% of the value of Facebook then it's still undervalued at $30. IMO the world is practically crying out for an alternative financial system free from high risk banking, but I digress. Average people will not actively seek any competing financial system Bitcoin included until they have a compelling motivation eating away at them 24/7. There are scenarios which could create those circumstances, but they're long shots that hinge upon various social, economic and political factors at some vague point in the distant future. I can at least see Bitcoin having a $1B market cap for now, but for BTC to really come into its own, average people will need to get off their behinds. In other words, don't count on it. Still the market cap of Apple is $450+ billion, and I'd like to think a global Internet currency/financial system is worth at least 10% of that to our society.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

moxie 14y ago

The thing that makes bitcoin different than other online payment systems or virtual currencies is that it's distributed. That property, however, is also what makes it difficult to use. It's true that if you re-centralize things by trusting someone else with your wallet, or outsourcing block chain verification to a central party, then it can be quite usable. From what I can tell, nobody is entirely comfortable with the direction that's headed, which is why there's a lot of handwaving about things like javascript-based cryptography, which just doesn't work. localbitcoins is cool, but a friend bought some BTC off me the other day, and it took over an hour (for the above reasons). Don't get me wrong, I think all of this is really interesting and amazing in a lot of ways, but not "easy peasy" as the parent commenter was saying.

patrikr 14y ago
> javascript-based cryptography, which just doesn't work LOL... Blockchain.info has over 120,000 users which disagree with you. As the old saying goes, "the dogs bark, but the caravan goes on".
- moxie 14y ago
  Please see any of the very many recent in-depth discussions about the security of webapp-based cryptography. Sure, it "works" in the sense that it's very easy to use, but it is by no means secure. I'm sure all of those other "online wallet" services that lost or disappeared with everyone's BTC also had plenty of users.
  - HappMacDonald 14y ago
    So use the Blockchain.info browser extension, instead.
  - BladeMcCool 14y ago
    you realize that they dont have your private key right? and that you can verify the javascript wasnt poisoned by having a hash of the legit javascript and comparing it? with a handy toolbar?
  - Charybdis 14y ago
    Moxie, given your background in cryptography, do you have any ideas on how the Bitcoin community could improve the user experience without compromising security?
- lectrick 14y ago
  There is so much misunderstanding around cryptography. Steps To Hack Blockchain.info 1) Discover a zero-day exploit in the operating system that Blockchain.info runs on 2) Hack it 3) Compromise the javascript that it delivers to the client 4) For the next 10 minutes or so (or up to the point the hack is discovered), anyone who logs into Blockchain.info via the web app and types in their password is compromised. Period. Now, granted, this won't affect EVERYONE who has a Blockchain.info account, only the ones who log in while it's hacked.
shredfvz 14y ago
> The thing that makes bitcoin different than other online payment systems or virtual currencies is that it's distributed. That property, however, is also what makes it difficult to use. This to me highlights just about everything there is to know about Bitcoin. People are too easily turned off by the amount of effort it takes to properly command a Bitcoin wallet. At least with the traditional banking system, a big bank is there to lend you a hand should you need anything or should something go wrong with one of your transactions. But there's a big tradeoff: when you utilize the traditional banking system, you must entrust at least some of your wealth to an entity you have absolutely zero control over. Right now that's fine, but personally I like the idea of keeping external dependencies to a minimum, especially when it comes to money. The price of Bitcoin remains affordable for now, and will continue to do so as long as people don't have a compelling reason to get off their behinds. For some perspective, the Bitcoin market cap is $332M. At a $1000M ($1B) market cap and ~12.8M BTC in circulation, the price per Bitcoin would be roughly $78. At a $10B market cap it would be $780. The market cap of Facebook is $68.7B. When you compare a global financial system with censorship resistant properties (Bitcoin), and give it a valuation six times less than a global social network (Facebook), 1 BTC is still worth $780. If Bitcoin is 60X less valuable to the world than Facebook, it's $78/coin. 120X less valuable and it's $39/coin. Meaning if Bitcoin truly provides the world less than 1% of the value of Facebook then it's still undervalued at $30. IMO the world is practically crying out for an alternative financial system free from high risk banking, but I digress. Average people will not actively seek any competing financial system Bitcoin included until they have a compelling motivation eating away at them 24/7. There are scenarios which could create those circumstances, but they're long shots that hinge upon various social, economic and political factors at some vague point in the distant future. I can at least see Bitcoin having a $1B market cap for now, but for BTC to really come into its own, average people will need to get off their behinds. In other words, don't count on it. Still the market cap of Apple is $450+ billion, and I'd like to think a global Internet currency/financial system is worth at least 10% of that to our society.