7 ms·

I think most people think the only reason bitcoins are useful is that they're not controlled by a government. However, I've recently started using bitcoins for

by drcode 14y ago

I think most people think the only reason bitcoins are useful is that they're not controlled by a government. However, I've recently started using bitcoins for some tiny transactions and found out something I didn't expect: They're EASY PEASY to use... much easier than papal, credit cards, or even cash! For those of you who don't know. A bitcoin "bank account" can be conjured out of thin air using randomness and some crypto algorithms. It consists of only two numbers, a public "bitcoin address" and a "private key". (kinda like an RSA key pair). The moment you've created these two numbers, you can say to someone "hey, send your $$$ to my address". Then, any time in the future you can withdraw money out of the account via your private key. This last step (withdrawing your money) is actually the ONLY step that requires any real effort at all (installing software on your PC, or trusting an online wallet site) and that's STILL super easy. EDIT: I think I ended up sounding too much like a cheerleader in this post... I'm talking purely about easiness from a theoretical standpoint. In the real world, there are clearly still many obstacles making bitcoins a PITA to deal with.

josephagoss 14y ago
This ease of use is certainly attractive. Try sending a couple of BTC to a poker room online, and then cash out your winnings and have that BTC within your wallet in a matter of hours max, not days! I can't wait till I can buy coffee and rent with BTC, it might never happen but I like the idea.
- drcode 14y ago
  You know, I was buying a sandwich with cash at Subway today and I suddenly thought "you know, this would actually be less cumbersome with bitcoins."
  - polshaw 14y ago
    if only the banking world had thought of a way to pay for things without cash..
    - drcode 14y ago
      Yes, they came up with a very tedious and complex way.
      - taproot 14y ago
        Swipe card here is very tedious and complex I must say.
        jrockway 14y ago
        The backend is more complicated, involving databases that determine your creditworthiness, plastic cards, communication networks, monthly billing, fraud prevention, ...
        taproot 14y ago
        All those things will happen to bitcoin if it ever gets anywhere close to being used as a real world currency. You're comparing a completely regulated system against a completely unregulated system, one which also happens to be brand spanking new. You're also bringing lines of credit into this for some reason, if you think people are just going to hand you out free bitcoin for your to pay back at a later date without wanting to know your credit worthiness I'm not sure how to explain things to you in a way you'll understand.
        drcode 14y ago
        Fair enough... but you're acting like that card in your hand just appeared out of thin air. Are you saying you've never had a bad experience with a credit card company?
        ceol 14y ago
        Not the person you're replying to, but I never have. Chase has been very friendly to me and even gave me a credit extension when I needed a new computer. Their customer support has always been helpful, and I have the security of chargebacks should someone scam me. Then again, the person you're replying to was probably talking about debit cards, which don't come with the same securities as credit cards but are just as easy to use and don't charge interest. So really, one must wonder why you weren't using a debit card if bitcoins would offer you an easier experience than cash?
OGinparadise 14y ago
Could this be used (wholesale) to get around the US ban on online gambling? I read that the major sites were busted and execs taken to US courts but maybe this is more secure and harder to track? Probably enough serious gamblers and gambling sites will probably take the chance with currency fluctuations.
- drcode 14y ago
  Not in itself: Bitcoins are actually embarrassingly easy to track (the full transaction history is available to anyone.) However, you can certainly go through some extra hoops to make tracking more difficult.
  - drewblaisdell 14y ago
    Bitcoins are easy to track to Bitcoin addresses. Connecting these addresses with any useful data (like someone's identity) is more difficult.
    - polshaw 14y ago
      Surely this only holds until you want to convert into local currency?
      - drcode 14y ago
        yes, that's the crux of the problem.
- lwat 14y ago
  Yes, the major bitcoin gambling site SatoshiDice is making loads of money already. http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/bitcoin-casino-105204 http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/bitcoin-casino-105204
- lectrick 14y ago
  Have you been living under a rock? Just about all the online gambling sites have BTC projects either in the works or already out there.
moxie 14y ago
Whenever I engage with BTC, "easy" is the last thing that I experience. Let's say that someone wants to start using bitcoin: it's as simple as downloading the software, double clicking on the icon, and... waiting 24hours or more for the block chain to sync, while the i/o volume on their disk goes through the roof. Once you finally accomplish that, you can purchase some bitcoins, which involves... this: https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20490576-Withdrawals-and-Deposits https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20490576-Withdrawals-and-D... A few days later, you finally have BTC in your wallet, so it's time to start your bitcoin client again and use them. You double click on the icon and... wait 30min to 1hr for the block chain to sync. Finally, you're ready to send them. Let's say you want to buy some music online, so you send BTC to an address that was generated by the site you're purchasing from and... wait 50 minutes to get enough verified transactions before they finally send you the music. All of this would be completely impossible on a mobile device. There are plenty of ideas for making bitcoin more usable, but they all unfortunately involve mitigating the strengths of the bitcoin as a concept.
- lectrick 14y ago
  Blockchain.info gets you a free wallet. Signed client-side so they can't mess with it. You don't need to run the "client" (which is really a "node") at all. The fact that this is not communicated well is a communication problem more than a technical one. localbitcoins.com if you want to buy some from anyone in the neighborhood.
  - deleted 14y ago
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  - deleted 14y ago
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  - moxie 14y ago
    The thing that makes bitcoin different than other online payment systems or virtual currencies is that it's distributed. That property, however, is also what makes it difficult to use. It's true that if you re-centralize things by trusting someone else with your wallet, or outsourcing block chain verification to a central party, then it can be quite usable. From what I can tell, nobody is entirely comfortable with the direction that's headed, which is why there's a lot of handwaving about things like javascript-based cryptography, which just doesn't work. localbitcoins is cool, but a friend bought some BTC off me the other day, and it took over an hour (for the above reasons). Don't get me wrong, I think all of this is really interesting and amazing in a lot of ways, but not "easy peasy" as the parent commenter was saying.
Steko 14y ago
"EASY PEASY to use... much easier than papal, credit cards, or even cash!" 99.9% of the purchases I make do not accept Bitcoins. This makes them several orders of magnitude less useful for me than either cash or my VISA card.
- drcode 14y ago
  Good point- Can't argue with you there.
jere 14y ago
Along the lines of the real world PITA you acknowledged at the end: getting dollars out of mtgox is a nightmare and don't expect for a second that you won't be giving up all your info to the government. I had some BTC lying around there for a year or so. When I came back, they had upgraded their security methods to the point where I had to: -submit proof of residence -submit a valid photo ID -wait several days -ask for verification on dwolla -wait several days In addition, there is a disclaimer on mtgox explicitly forbidding Tor and using proxies. There's not a shred of anonymity in this process.

by drcode 14y ago

josephagoss 14y ago

This ease of use is certainly attractive. Try sending a couple of BTC to a poker room online, and then cash out your winnings and have that BTC within your wallet in a matter of hours max, not days! I can't wait till I can buy coffee and rent with BTC, it might never happen but I like the idea.

drcode 14y ago
You know, I was buying a sandwich with cash at Subway today and I suddenly thought "you know, this would actually be less cumbersome with bitcoins."
- polshaw 14y ago
  if only the banking world had thought of a way to pay for things without cash..
  - drcode 14y ago
    Yes, they came up with a very tedious and complex way.
    - taproot 14y ago
      Swipe card here is very tedious and complex I must say.
      - jrockway 14y ago
        The backend is more complicated, involving databases that determine your creditworthiness, plastic cards, communication networks, monthly billing, fraud prevention, ...
        taproot 14y ago
        All those things will happen to bitcoin if it ever gets anywhere close to being used as a real world currency. You're comparing a completely regulated system against a completely unregulated system, one which also happens to be brand spanking new. You're also bringing lines of credit into this for some reason, if you think people are just going to hand you out free bitcoin for your to pay back at a later date without wanting to know your credit worthiness I'm not sure how to explain things to you in a way you'll understand.
      - drcode 14y ago
        Fair enough... but you're acting like that card in your hand just appeared out of thin air. Are you saying you've never had a bad experience with a credit card company?
        ceol 14y ago
        Not the person you're replying to, but I never have. Chase has been very friendly to me and even gave me a credit extension when I needed a new computer. Their customer support has always been helpful, and I have the security of chargebacks should someone scam me. Then again, the person you're replying to was probably talking about debit cards, which don't come with the same securities as credit cards but are just as easy to use and don't charge interest. So really, one must wonder why you weren't using a debit card if bitcoins would offer you an easier experience than cash?

OGinparadise 14y ago

Could this be used (wholesale) to get around the US ban on online gambling? I read that the major sites were busted and execs taken to US courts but maybe this is more secure and harder to track? Probably enough serious gamblers and gambling sites will probably take the chance with currency fluctuations.

drcode 14y ago
Not in itself: Bitcoins are actually embarrassingly easy to track (the full transaction history is available to anyone.) However, you can certainly go through some extra hoops to make tracking more difficult.
- drewblaisdell 14y ago
  Bitcoins are easy to track to Bitcoin addresses. Connecting these addresses with any useful data (like someone's identity) is more difficult.
  - polshaw 14y ago
    Surely this only holds until you want to convert into local currency?
    - drcode 14y ago
      yes, that's the crux of the problem.
lwat 14y ago
Yes, the major bitcoin gambling site SatoshiDice is making loads of money already. http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/bitcoin-casino-105204 http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/bitcoin-casino-105204
lectrick 14y ago
Have you been living under a rock? Just about all the online gambling sites have BTC projects either in the works or already out there.

moxie 14y ago

Whenever I engage with BTC, "easy" is the last thing that I experience. Let's say that someone wants to start using bitcoin: it's as simple as downloading the software, double clicking on the icon, and... waiting 24hours or more for the block chain to sync, while the i/o volume on their disk goes through the roof. Once you finally accomplish that, you can purchase some bitcoins, which involves... this: https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20490576-Withdrawals-and-Deposits https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20490576-Withdrawals-and-D... A few days later, you finally have BTC in your wallet, so it's time to start your bitcoin client again and use them. You double click on the icon and... wait 30min to 1hr for the block chain to sync. Finally, you're ready to send them. Let's say you want to buy some music online, so you send BTC to an address that was generated by the site you're purchasing from and... wait 50 minutes to get enough verified transactions before they finally send you the music. All of this would be completely impossible on a mobile device. There are plenty of ideas for making bitcoin more usable, but they all unfortunately involve mitigating the strengths of the bitcoin as a concept.

lectrick 14y ago
Blockchain.info gets you a free wallet. Signed client-side so they can't mess with it. You don't need to run the "client" (which is really a "node") at all. The fact that this is not communicated well is a communication problem more than a technical one. localbitcoins.com if you want to buy some from anyone in the neighborhood.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- moxie 14y ago
  The thing that makes bitcoin different than other online payment systems or virtual currencies is that it's distributed. That property, however, is also what makes it difficult to use. It's true that if you re-centralize things by trusting someone else with your wallet, or outsourcing block chain verification to a central party, then it can be quite usable. From what I can tell, nobody is entirely comfortable with the direction that's headed, which is why there's a lot of handwaving about things like javascript-based cryptography, which just doesn't work. localbitcoins is cool, but a friend bought some BTC off me the other day, and it took over an hour (for the above reasons). Don't get me wrong, I think all of this is really interesting and amazing in a lot of ways, but not "easy peasy" as the parent commenter was saying.

Steko 14y ago

"EASY PEASY to use... much easier than papal, credit cards, or even cash!" 99.9% of the purchases I make do not accept Bitcoins. This makes them several orders of magnitude less useful for me than either cash or my VISA card.

drcode 14y ago
Good point- Can't argue with you there.

jere 14y ago

Along the lines of the real world PITA you acknowledged at the end: getting dollars out of mtgox is a nightmare and don't expect for a second that you won't be giving up all your info to the government. I had some BTC lying around there for a year or so. When I came back, they had upgraded their security methods to the point where I had to: -submit proof of residence -submit a valid photo ID -wait several days -ask for verification on dwolla -wait several days In addition, there is a disclaimer on mtgox explicitly forbidding Tor and using proxies. There's not a shred of anonymity in this process.