4 ms·

The dangers of operating a Tor exit node

96 points by vaksel 18y ago

noonespecial 18y ago
From the computers I've been asked by friends and family to repair of their malware epidemics lately, I could retitle this article "The dangers of operating Windows XP". Every single one has been in one botnet or another. Tor is a sticky problem, sure, but uninformed law enforcement is as well. An IP is not a telephone number. With the onslaught of voip, soon a telephone number won't be either. At least this case had a prosecution free resolution.
ryanwaggoner 18y ago
I found this part at the end of the post amusing: They need to be disciplined and retrained, and their senior managers need to be named and shamed, as they are an unacceptable risk to innocent members of the public, and the real criminals must be running rings around them. There's absolutely no incentive for the police to understand these things (or let on that they do) and avoid freaking out "innocent" members of the public. Look at this example: this guy won't be running a Tor exit node again, so in a way, they got what they wanted.
alecco 18y ago
Blogspam, flagged. Original: http://calumog.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/why-you-need-balls-of-steel-to-operate-a-tor-exit-node/ http://calumog.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/why-you-need-balls-o...
- cdr 18y ago
  It looks like the link now points there; I assume it was fixed. Shouldn't this comment be deleted now if that's the case?
  - alecco 18y ago
    I'd love to, but I can't delete it now. (Maybe after a while you can't or after a reply?)
poutine 18y ago
Because of the ignorance of the police you need to be nuts to run a Tor exit node. I don't much see the point in Tor anyhow, you want to be anonymous for some reason just use an unsecured WIFI AP or a proxy in another country, easy enough.
- huhtenberg 18y ago
  > Because of the ignorance of the police you need to be nuts to run a Tor exit node. You'd be nuts to do that because 90% of the traffic going through your node will warrant legit police interest.
  - orc 18y ago
    So are you saying that 90% of the people who want privacy want it for illegal reasons? Then you won't mind if I read all your email? That's what I thought.
    - huhtenberg 18y ago
      > That's what I thought. You thought that privacy requires anonymity. It doesn't.
- jonas_b 18y ago
  I think unsecured WIFI AP in Burma or China is a very precious commodity, if it even exists.
  - mahmud 18y ago
    China has some open WIFI services (I deployed some FON routers in South China.) I have also been to Burma last year, and the biggest risk there is not technological censorship but human snitches. Burma is a massive country, some parts of which are controlled by the opposition groups, but in government strong-holds, you probably wouldn't find wifi, much less an unsecured one. In any case, do not use someone's network to do something that might get them killed.
  - 18y ago
cstejerean 18y ago
What I'd like to see is a way to enforce restrictions on the destinations you're willing to route as an exit node. I'm all for giving people living under restrictive regimes access to things like Wikipedia, but I don't particularly care to enable anonymous access to child pornography.
- eli 18y ago
  Well, obviously a blacklist wouldn't work, so are you suggesting a whitelist? Seems like that would seriously reduce the usefulness. How would you know what foreign-language dissident news sites to include?
  - stcredzero 18y ago
    What about the ability to spread out a particular request to many exit nodes? This would probably require the establishment of new formats and protocols. How about image formats with the same sort of information as Bittorrent? (Can someone be prosecuted for downloading a fraction of something?) As mentioned in the Rivest article posted recently, there are also "packaging transforms" that allow one to divide information up into n parts, such that all n parts must be provided to retrieve it. I am surprised that such protocols haven't been devised yet. Yes, this would enable those engaged in child pornography. But those so engaged will just concoct yet another mish-mash of obscurity in any case. (Like using encrypted Windows Remote Desktop connections to virtual servers with encrypted archives on them.) Just because Bittorrent is used by so-called "pirates," doesn't invalidate it or its use to distribute ISOs of Linux distributions. Likewise, such protocols would patch TOR's weakness at its exit nodes.
    - tlrobinson 18y ago
      If the server supports HTTP Range headers you can easily download portions of files. I'm not sure what percentage of servers do, though.
      - eli 18y ago
cousin_it 18y ago
Congratulations, now you understand who benefited when the media created the pedophilia scare. I confess to being a total conspiracy theory nut on this topic, and go out of my way to defend "sex offenders" in any online discussion I come across. Sadly this is not enough. We're up against a monstrous evil machine made up of mostly good and well-intentioned humans and there's no apparent way to defeat it. Think about it: who should we blame for the persecution and near ostracism of the article's author? The journalist who honestly warns the public about pedophiles? The media executives? The lawmakers? The police? The whole chain is structured to remove accountability, letting both idea creators and executives sleep peacefully with a clear conscience. The end result is the poor person facing a giant senseless Machine, thankful to be alive after narrowly avoiding its grinding gears. It doesn't have to be this way, people.
- axod 18y ago
  If anyone hasn't seen it already... (Brasseye: Paedogeddon) Part1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7jVnrfoZD8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7jVnrfoZD8&feature=relat... Part2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcnQDYnGtS8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcnQDYnGtS8&feature=relat... Part3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA07Tw4iEFw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA07Tw4iEFw&feature=relat...
- mikedouglas 18y ago
  Where did the process screw up here? Regardless whether he was running a Tor server or not, you don't think that the link between his IP address and child pornography was enough to warrant a search?
  - josefresco 18y ago
    I would think that the Police, or a judge in particular (who allows this warrant) would require at least one more piece of cooberating evidence before 'breaking someone's door down'.
    - ciupicri 18y ago
topbanana 18y ago
Nice cover story
bprater 18y ago
How do the police even stumble on the fact that this guy was involved? Did they take down a pedophilia source and then rip through the web server logs? (That seems legit.) Or were they monitoring IP traffic on a larger scale, knew of a pedophilia source, let it continue running and simply harvested IP addresses that were connecting with it? (Sounds like a privacy issue.) Regardless -- how does a good guy help without putting himself in legal hot water?
bprater 18y ago
This is the type of article that should be passed out to everyone running an open Wifi network.
- jgfoot 18y ago
  Hell yes. I thought of this sort of thing when I read Bruce Schneier's infamous piece about how it's a great idea to keep your wi-fi network open. http://www.wired.com/politics/security/commentary/securitymatters/2008/01/securitymatters_0110 http://www.wired.com/politics/security/commentary/securityma... Tor exit nodes and open-wifi let other people use your IP address, and for purposes of a search warrant you might as well let them use your name and face.

96 points by vaksel 18y ago

From the computers I've been asked by friends and family to repair of their malware epidemics lately, I could retitle this article "The dangers of operating Windows XP". Every single one has been in one botnet or another. Tor is a sticky problem, sure, but uninformed law enforcement is as well. An IP is not a telephone number. With the onslaught of voip, soon a telephone number won't be either. At least this case had a prosecution free resolution.

ryanwaggoner 18y ago

I found this part at the end of the post amusing: They need to be disciplined and retrained, and their senior managers need to be named and shamed, as they are an unacceptable risk to innocent members of the public, and the real criminals must be running rings around them. There's absolutely no incentive for the police to understand these things (or let on that they do) and avoid freaking out "innocent" members of the public. Look at this example: this guy won't be running a Tor exit node again, so in a way, they got what they wanted.

alecco 18y ago

Blogspam, flagged. Original: http://calumog.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/why-you-need-balls-of-steel-to-operate-a-tor-exit-node/ http://calumog.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/why-you-need-balls-o...

cdr 18y ago
It looks like the link now points there; I assume it was fixed. Shouldn't this comment be deleted now if that's the case?
- alecco 18y ago
  I'd love to, but I can't delete it now. (Maybe after a while you can't or after a reply?)

poutine 18y ago

Because of the ignorance of the police you need to be nuts to run a Tor exit node. I don't much see the point in Tor anyhow, you want to be anonymous for some reason just use an unsecured WIFI AP or a proxy in another country, easy enough.

huhtenberg 18y ago
> Because of the ignorance of the police you need to be nuts to run a Tor exit node. You'd be nuts to do that because 90% of the traffic going through your node will warrant legit police interest.
- orc 18y ago
  So are you saying that 90% of the people who want privacy want it for illegal reasons? Then you won't mind if I read all your email? That's what I thought.
  - huhtenberg 18y ago
    > That's what I thought. You thought that privacy requires anonymity. It doesn't.
jonas_b 18y ago
I think unsecured WIFI AP in Burma or China is a very precious commodity, if it even exists.
- mahmud 18y ago
  China has some open WIFI services (I deployed some FON routers in South China.) I have also been to Burma last year, and the biggest risk there is not technological censorship but human snitches. Burma is a massive country, some parts of which are controlled by the opposition groups, but in government strong-holds, you probably wouldn't find wifi, much less an unsecured one. In any case, do not use someone's network to do something that might get them killed.
- 18y ago

cstejerean 18y ago

What I'd like to see is a way to enforce restrictions on the destinations you're willing to route as an exit node. I'm all for giving people living under restrictive regimes access to things like Wikipedia, but I don't particularly care to enable anonymous access to child pornography.

eli 18y ago
Well, obviously a blacklist wouldn't work, so are you suggesting a whitelist? Seems like that would seriously reduce the usefulness. How would you know what foreign-language dissident news sites to include?
- stcredzero 18y ago
  What about the ability to spread out a particular request to many exit nodes? This would probably require the establishment of new formats and protocols. How about image formats with the same sort of information as Bittorrent? (Can someone be prosecuted for downloading a fraction of something?) As mentioned in the Rivest article posted recently, there are also "packaging transforms" that allow one to divide information up into n parts, such that all n parts must be provided to retrieve it. I am surprised that such protocols haven't been devised yet. Yes, this would enable those engaged in child pornography. But those so engaged will just concoct yet another mish-mash of obscurity in any case. (Like using encrypted Windows Remote Desktop connections to virtual servers with encrypted archives on them.) Just because Bittorrent is used by so-called "pirates," doesn't invalidate it or its use to distribute ISOs of Linux distributions. Likewise, such protocols would patch TOR's weakness at its exit nodes.
  - tlrobinson 18y ago
    If the server supports HTTP Range headers you can easily download portions of files. I'm not sure what percentage of servers do, though.
    - eli 18y ago

cousin_it 18y ago

Congratulations, now you understand who benefited when the media created the pedophilia scare. I confess to being a total conspiracy theory nut on this topic, and go out of my way to defend "sex offenders" in any online discussion I come across. Sadly this is not enough. We're up against a monstrous evil machine made up of mostly good and well-intentioned humans and there's no apparent way to defeat it. Think about it: who should we blame for the persecution and near ostracism of the article's author? The journalist who honestly warns the public about pedophiles? The media executives? The lawmakers? The police? The whole chain is structured to remove accountability, letting both idea creators and executives sleep peacefully with a clear conscience. The end result is the poor person facing a giant senseless Machine, thankful to be alive after narrowly avoiding its grinding gears. It doesn't have to be this way, people.

axod 18y ago
If anyone hasn't seen it already... (Brasseye: Paedogeddon) Part1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7jVnrfoZD8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7jVnrfoZD8&feature=relat... Part2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcnQDYnGtS8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcnQDYnGtS8&feature=relat... Part3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA07Tw4iEFw&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA07Tw4iEFw&feature=relat...
mikedouglas 18y ago
Where did the process screw up here? Regardless whether he was running a Tor server or not, you don't think that the link between his IP address and child pornography was enough to warrant a search?
- josefresco 18y ago
  I would think that the Police, or a judge in particular (who allows this warrant) would require at least one more piece of cooberating evidence before 'breaking someone's door down'.
  - ciupicri 18y ago

topbanana 18y ago

Nice cover story

bprater 18y ago

How do the police even stumble on the fact that this guy was involved? Did they take down a pedophilia source and then rip through the web server logs? (That seems legit.) Or were they monitoring IP traffic on a larger scale, knew of a pedophilia source, let it continue running and simply harvested IP addresses that were connecting with it? (Sounds like a privacy issue.) Regardless -- how does a good guy help without putting himself in legal hot water?

bprater 18y ago

This is the type of article that should be passed out to everyone running an open Wifi network.

jgfoot 18y ago
Hell yes. I thought of this sort of thing when I read Bruce Schneier's infamous piece about how it's a great idea to keep your wi-fi network open. http://www.wired.com/politics/security/commentary/securitymatters/2008/01/securitymatters_0110 http://www.wired.com/politics/security/commentary/securityma... Tor exit nodes and open-wifi let other people use your IP address, and for purposes of a search warrant you might as well let them use your name and face.