4 ms·

It is a problem with any patents, not with Apple in particular. Patent law was not a voluntary contract that Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, Google and others negoti

by naner 14y ago

It is a problem with any patents, not with Apple in particular. Patent law was not a voluntary contract that Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, Google and others negotiated between each other up front. It was imposed by entirely different group of people who pay armed soldiers to enforce their decisions. All the incumbents have repeatedly lobbied to strengthen their advantage in the patent system so it is actually their fault. I don't know why you would presume Apple to be innocent. They have more power than most companies, they could lobby for change if they wanted to.

oleganza 14y ago
Apple is not innocent for using existing weapon. But do not forget that the patent system was created well before Apple even existed. If there was no patent system, tax-funded courts and police, Apple and others: 1) would have nowhere to go for a cheap and brutal protection. 2) would not worry that someone else will use cheap and brutal protection against them. Why is it cheap? Because couple of millions of bucks spent on lawyers is nothing comparing to amount of tax money and propaganda that fuels police and courts. No company that earns money from voluntary exchange would risk creating its own armed gang: it will quickly run out of customers well before raising enough funds for a small army. And if you are afraid that in absence of tax-funded police, some private companies would not protect themselves and their customers, but instead become super-powerful mafia themselves, then it is yet another reason why you cannot have monopoly of violent power in the first place. My suggestion: no reasoning and intellectual debate is possible if there is a gun in the room. Take away the gun first, then we could discuss different ways to protect intellectual and other property. Guns are needed only against other guns, but even then there's no discussion going on, but pure state of jungle.
- jeremyarussell 14y ago
  You obviously have a hard on for guns. Yet the thing that does the most damage to our system is the biggest companies constantly lobbying with their weapon of choice, money, and lots of it. They continue to push for stronger patents, not weaker ones. They want longer time frames and more complicated bureaucracy's so that the massive amount of money they have for lawyers will make sure it's always easy for them to get patents instead of the people working from their garage that invent something and can't afford to get a lawyer and file a patent. All the groups you say your gut tells you want less patents consistently show us via their actions that they want stronger patents. I'll be the first to advocate for a better understanding of non-violent means for negotiation, but the dynamics of violence and weapons and human psychology goes in a different area other then a patent discussion. Unless you're trying to derail the topic into a flame war or something.
  - oleganza 14y ago
    Human psychology, to my understanding, is flexible. If you have patent threat for 100 years, people adapt to it. You have to accept existence of patents because someone may buy one and shut you down. You also surrounded by massive propaganda that whatever government does is generally good (bad stuff is exceptional). As a result, if not you, but many people around you see patents as a morally correct tool that can be abused, but if not abused, it's all right. And even if you don't think it's such a great idea, you still have to play along because someone else will use patents against you. Is it surprising then, that in 2013 (223 years since the first patent issued in 1790) you have big budgets to file as many patents as they can? Is that a proof that you would have similar situation with no patent office? I admit, it is useless to debate too much about what would happen if. It's more pragmatic to talk about how would you design non-violent scheme of negotiation where people are protected and insured against violence. The gun issue is not offtopic. It is the primary reason why you have all of the drama around government. Because people are ultimately threatened with murder if they do not comply. If you have no possibility to hurt person for non-complience, then there is no drama. You both can perfectly avoid each other and use peaceful means to find justice as much as you want. So my approach to any question about abuse of (or use of) state-provided violence is this: 1. Identify the violence. 2. Think how to avoid it completely. Patent law is a system of brutal violence not based on any hard core moral proof. You require proofs from a mathematician, and still do not kill him if he's wrong. Why don't you require even stronger proof from anybody with a gun? It is not a solution to limit patents. And not even to call for their abolishment. You cannot come to mafia and ask them to stop doing what they are doing. The solution is to simply avoid patents as much as you can while finding other ways to protect yourself. How to do that practically (not by persuasion, but by building some sort of mechanism for people) - is another complex topic. I myself investigate how you can build an anonymous dispute resolution network on top of Bitcoin blockchain (to use it as a secure storage of agreements). Anonymity will provide safety from violence, while conforming to the network rules will allow to make deals with other people. This way you can grow a community of people who respect each other's choices without threatening each other using legal or illegal methods.

by naner 14y ago

oleganza 14y ago

Apple is not innocent for using existing weapon. But do not forget that the patent system was created well before Apple even existed. If there was no patent system, tax-funded courts and police, Apple and others: 1) would have nowhere to go for a cheap and brutal protection. 2) would not worry that someone else will use cheap and brutal protection against them. Why is it cheap? Because couple of millions of bucks spent on lawyers is nothing comparing to amount of tax money and propaganda that fuels police and courts. No company that earns money from voluntary exchange would risk creating its own armed gang: it will quickly run out of customers well before raising enough funds for a small army. And if you are afraid that in absence of tax-funded police, some private companies would not protect themselves and their customers, but instead become super-powerful mafia themselves, then it is yet another reason why you cannot have monopoly of violent power in the first place. My suggestion: no reasoning and intellectual debate is possible if there is a gun in the room. Take away the gun first, then we could discuss different ways to protect intellectual and other property. Guns are needed only against other guns, but even then there's no discussion going on, but pure state of jungle.

jeremyarussell 14y ago
You obviously have a hard on for guns. Yet the thing that does the most damage to our system is the biggest companies constantly lobbying with their weapon of choice, money, and lots of it. They continue to push for stronger patents, not weaker ones. They want longer time frames and more complicated bureaucracy's so that the massive amount of money they have for lawyers will make sure it's always easy for them to get patents instead of the people working from their garage that invent something and can't afford to get a lawyer and file a patent. All the groups you say your gut tells you want less patents consistently show us via their actions that they want stronger patents. I'll be the first to advocate for a better understanding of non-violent means for negotiation, but the dynamics of violence and weapons and human psychology goes in a different area other then a patent discussion. Unless you're trying to derail the topic into a flame war or something.
- oleganza 14y ago
  Human psychology, to my understanding, is flexible. If you have patent threat for 100 years, people adapt to it. You have to accept existence of patents because someone may buy one and shut you down. You also surrounded by massive propaganda that whatever government does is generally good (bad stuff is exceptional). As a result, if not you, but many people around you see patents as a morally correct tool that can be abused, but if not abused, it's all right. And even if you don't think it's such a great idea, you still have to play along because someone else will use patents against you. Is it surprising then, that in 2013 (223 years since the first patent issued in 1790) you have big budgets to file as many patents as they can? Is that a proof that you would have similar situation with no patent office? I admit, it is useless to debate too much about what would happen if. It's more pragmatic to talk about how would you design non-violent scheme of negotiation where people are protected and insured against violence. The gun issue is not offtopic. It is the primary reason why you have all of the drama around government. Because people are ultimately threatened with murder if they do not comply. If you have no possibility to hurt person for non-complience, then there is no drama. You both can perfectly avoid each other and use peaceful means to find justice as much as you want. So my approach to any question about abuse of (or use of) state-provided violence is this: 1. Identify the violence. 2. Think how to avoid it completely. Patent law is a system of brutal violence not based on any hard core moral proof. You require proofs from a mathematician, and still do not kill him if he's wrong. Why don't you require even stronger proof from anybody with a gun? It is not a solution to limit patents. And not even to call for their abolishment. You cannot come to mafia and ask them to stop doing what they are doing. The solution is to simply avoid patents as much as you can while finding other ways to protect yourself. How to do that practically (not by persuasion, but by building some sort of mechanism for people) - is another complex topic. I myself investigate how you can build an anonymous dispute resolution network on top of Bitcoin blockchain (to use it as a secure storage of agreements). Anonymity will provide safety from violence, while conforming to the network rules will allow to make deals with other people. This way you can grow a community of people who respect each other's choices without threatening each other using legal or illegal methods.