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Never ever directly accuse someone of lying. Mostly because it's usually a communication problem where they said it unclear and your heard it wrong. Also becaus

Never ever directly accuse someone of lying. Mostly because it's usually a communication problem where they said it unclear and your heard it wrong. Also because you should always give someone a way out without losing too much face. I would have said something like: Sorry if I gave the impression of not cooperating, but I can assure you I did not and will not take any more pictures this flight. It would mean a lot to me if I could stay on the plane.

trustfundbaby 14y ago
Sorry if I gave the impression of not cooperating, but I can assure you I did not and will not take any more pictures this flight. It would mean a lot to me if I could stay on the plane ----- feels a bit too servile for me, especially if I felt I didn't do anything wrong in the first place.
- sdoering 14y ago
  Why, if this means, you stay on the plane, you win. But nobody looses his/her face. So wining, without anyone losing, what is so wrong? Everything else (and I sadly, really often react that way) is the little child in a sand-pit: "But he started it" kind of argument. Not mature, not civilized, just childish - the way or societies more and more seem to become imho.
  - PavlovsCat 14y ago
    There is nothing civilized about failing to point out that the claim "he took more pictures" is a lie. There is nothing civilized about abuse of power. There is nothing civilized in accepting it. But the real WTF is: how would agreeing to be led off the plane have resulted in him staying on it? His fate was sealed when he explained his picture to the FA and she had a 'nam flashback, or whatever the fuck caused this; but what makes you think crawling on his belly after that would have changed anything?
    - chc 14y ago
      > There is nothing civilized about failing to point out that the claim "he took more pictures" is a lie. Was it? Or did she misunderstand his need to justify himself as a way of indicating that he did not intend to stop? You assume she lied -- probably because that's what you are most comfortable believing -- but it's not necessarily true. People make false claims all the time that they really, genuinely believe to be the truth. Based on the scant evidence as we have, your accusation toward the flight attendant could even be an example of the same thing she did -- automatically assuming the worst of someone.
      - PavlovsCat 14y ago
        If she assumes him possibly indicating intent to not stop to be actually taking pictures, then maybe you're right, she didn't lie... because as Chomsky pointed out in a talk I saw recently, the accusation of lying implies the capacity to tell the truth, which requires a level of mental processing out of the reach of the FA... so as you can see, at least for me saying she lied is the kindest one of all available options.
      - lusr 14y ago
        Perhaps this is just my opinion, but if you make a statement that you don't know to be true and assert it as a true statement, you have lied.
        lutusp 14y ago
        > Perhaps this is just my opinion, but if you make a statement that you don't know to be true and assert it as a true statement, you have lied. No, this is not correct. If the speaker doesn't know that a statement is false, the statement is not a lie. Lying requires knowledge that the remark is false and must include an intent to deceive. ---------------------------------------- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie Quote: "To lie is to deliver a false statement to another person which the speaking person knows is not the whole truth, intentionally." http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Lie http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Lie Quote: "1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. 2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression." ---------------------------------------- See the role of knowledge and intent?
  - alan_cx 14y ago
    Well, one could say its giving in to a bully. BTW, you do lose. You lose self respect and dignity, and yet more freedom. Every time each of us has that chipped away, its another win for the terrorist, who must be laughing their nuts off watching scared westerners become more and more borg like. But hey, you get your flight, and as we know, that is way more important than freedom, self respect and dignity. Short term gain always trumps long term decency. Of course the vast majority are quite happy for that trade off, given how scared we all are of a 1 in 2 million chance terrorist attack in the US. Context: 1 in 900,00 that you'll die in your bath... Or 1 in 19,000 of dying in your car. 15 US citizens died of terrorists in 2010.
- jrockway 14y ago
  feels a bit too servile for me Is acting submissive to control someone else really being submissive? (No. It's just another tool in the dealing-with-people toolbox. Save your flames for the Internets!)
  - PavlovsCat 14y ago
    Is acting submissive to control someone else really being submissive? That's not "control", that's "hoping to influence". And yes, it's being submissive.
    - jrockway 14y ago
      Person A has something you want. You do something. Person A gives you the thing you want. You win, because now you have the thing you want instead of Person A.
      - PavlovsCat 14y ago
        Person A has the authority to license use of something you want. You do something you do not want (tell an untruth, say "thanks" after being slapped, that sort of thing), but that Person A wants. Person A gives you said license, this time. The next time, you'll have to do the trick again, or no license. Instead of getting closer to issuing the license of use yourself, you actually cement yourself into the skinner box.
- hmexx 14y ago
  Best of both worlds alternative: Act like DoubleCluster suggests before the plane takes off... ... on landing, once most people have evacuated, take them aside and unload your full fury upon them!
- dagw 14y ago
  What's wrong with acting a bit servile once in a while if makes people around you happy and leads to them doing what you want? Being nice and polite to people isn't a sign of weakness.
  - scotty79 14y ago
    I guess it's to British for average American taste.
  - vidarh 14y ago
    Being nice and polite to people in the hope that maybe they will stop abusing their power over you is a sign of weakness.
- prawn 14y ago
  Plus paying for the service. In this case, the customer was wrong, shamed, inconvenienced, etc.
jrockway 14y ago
Everyone really should read "How to win friends and influence people."
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  No, they really shouldn't. I've read it. Meh. Full of just cliché advice and fluff. In fact you'll get as much good advice from reading the wikipedia article as you will from reading the book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People#Fundamental_Techniques_in_Handling_People http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influenc...
tokenadult 14y ago
Never ever directly accuse someone of lying. Mostly because it's usually a communication problem where they said it unclear and your heard it wrong. This is generally helpful advice in many life contexts. I wish Elon Musk had followed it recently.

trustfundbaby 14y ago

Sorry if I gave the impression of not cooperating, but I can assure you I did not and will not take any more pictures this flight. It would mean a lot to me if I could stay on the plane ----- feels a bit too servile for me, especially if I felt I didn't do anything wrong in the first place.

sdoering 14y ago
Why, if this means, you stay on the plane, you win. But nobody looses his/her face. So wining, without anyone losing, what is so wrong? Everything else (and I sadly, really often react that way) is the little child in a sand-pit: "But he started it" kind of argument. Not mature, not civilized, just childish - the way or societies more and more seem to become imho.
- PavlovsCat 14y ago
  There is nothing civilized about failing to point out that the claim "he took more pictures" is a lie. There is nothing civilized about abuse of power. There is nothing civilized in accepting it. But the real WTF is: how would agreeing to be led off the plane have resulted in him staying on it? His fate was sealed when he explained his picture to the FA and she had a 'nam flashback, or whatever the fuck caused this; but what makes you think crawling on his belly after that would have changed anything?
  - chc 14y ago
    > There is nothing civilized about failing to point out that the claim "he took more pictures" is a lie. Was it? Or did she misunderstand his need to justify himself as a way of indicating that he did not intend to stop? You assume she lied -- probably because that's what you are most comfortable believing -- but it's not necessarily true. People make false claims all the time that they really, genuinely believe to be the truth. Based on the scant evidence as we have, your accusation toward the flight attendant could even be an example of the same thing she did -- automatically assuming the worst of someone.
    - PavlovsCat 14y ago
      If she assumes him possibly indicating intent to not stop to be actually taking pictures, then maybe you're right, she didn't lie... because as Chomsky pointed out in a talk I saw recently, the accusation of lying implies the capacity to tell the truth, which requires a level of mental processing out of the reach of the FA... so as you can see, at least for me saying she lied is the kindest one of all available options.
    - lusr 14y ago
      Perhaps this is just my opinion, but if you make a statement that you don't know to be true and assert it as a true statement, you have lied.
      - lutusp 14y ago
        > Perhaps this is just my opinion, but if you make a statement that you don't know to be true and assert it as a true statement, you have lied. No, this is not correct. If the speaker doesn't know that a statement is false, the statement is not a lie. Lying requires knowledge that the remark is false and must include an intent to deceive. ---------------------------------------- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie Quote: "To lie is to deliver a false statement to another person which the speaking person knows is not the whole truth, intentionally." http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Lie http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Lie Quote: "1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. 2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression." ---------------------------------------- See the role of knowledge and intent?
- alan_cx 14y ago
  Well, one could say its giving in to a bully. BTW, you do lose. You lose self respect and dignity, and yet more freedom. Every time each of us has that chipped away, its another win for the terrorist, who must be laughing their nuts off watching scared westerners become more and more borg like. But hey, you get your flight, and as we know, that is way more important than freedom, self respect and dignity. Short term gain always trumps long term decency. Of course the vast majority are quite happy for that trade off, given how scared we all are of a 1 in 2 million chance terrorist attack in the US. Context: 1 in 900,00 that you'll die in your bath... Or 1 in 19,000 of dying in your car. 15 US citizens died of terrorists in 2010.
jrockway 14y ago
feels a bit too servile for me Is acting submissive to control someone else really being submissive? (No. It's just another tool in the dealing-with-people toolbox. Save your flames for the Internets!)
- PavlovsCat 14y ago
  Is acting submissive to control someone else really being submissive? That's not "control", that's "hoping to influence". And yes, it's being submissive.
  - jrockway 14y ago
    Person A has something you want. You do something. Person A gives you the thing you want. You win, because now you have the thing you want instead of Person A.
    - PavlovsCat 14y ago
      Person A has the authority to license use of something you want. You do something you do not want (tell an untruth, say "thanks" after being slapped, that sort of thing), but that Person A wants. Person A gives you said license, this time. The next time, you'll have to do the trick again, or no license. Instead of getting closer to issuing the license of use yourself, you actually cement yourself into the skinner box.
hmexx 14y ago
Best of both worlds alternative: Act like DoubleCluster suggests before the plane takes off... ... on landing, once most people have evacuated, take them aside and unload your full fury upon them!
dagw 14y ago
What's wrong with acting a bit servile once in a while if makes people around you happy and leads to them doing what you want? Being nice and polite to people isn't a sign of weakness.
- scotty79 14y ago
  I guess it's to British for average American taste.
- vidarh 14y ago
  Being nice and polite to people in the hope that maybe they will stop abusing their power over you is a sign of weakness.
prawn 14y ago
Plus paying for the service. In this case, the customer was wrong, shamed, inconvenienced, etc.

jrockway 14y ago

Everyone really should read "How to win friends and influence people."

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
No, they really shouldn't. I've read it. Meh. Full of just cliché advice and fluff. In fact you'll get as much good advice from reading the wikipedia article as you will from reading the book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People#Fundamental_Techniques_in_Handling_People http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influenc...

tokenadult 14y ago

Never ever directly accuse someone of lying. Mostly because it's usually a communication problem where they said it unclear and your heard it wrong. This is generally helpful advice in many life contexts. I wish Elon Musk had followed it recently.