6 ms·

Ripple, the First True Bitcoin Competitor

45 points by rasengan 14y ago

rheide 14y ago
So rather than the opportunist/capitalist/democratic solution of bitcoin, we have a benevolent dictator handing out 'money' to whoever would like to be on the network?
- JoelKatz 14y ago
  You're looking at Ripple as if it were a currency rather than as what it is, a payment system.
  - glomph 14y ago
    FTA ' Ripple (XRP) is a new decentralized Bitcoin-like currency '
    - JoelKatz 14y ago
      There are people who want to promote it that way, but that doesn't include the people who designed and built it. Check out http://ripple.com/ http://ripple.com/
      - nunyabuizness 14y ago
        But the point is that if they (XRP) come to have any monetary value at all, the whole thing reduces to a ponzi scheme with benefits.
    - wmf 14y ago
      I'm not totally sure on this, but AIUI XRP is a new currency and Ripple is a system that can trade any currency including XRP, BTC, USD, etc.
mtoledo 14y ago
"... inventing a decentralized way to send and exchange non Ripple currencies over its network. The latter enables two things which will truly allow Bitcoin to flourish: 1) Most Bitcoin transactions can be done through the Ripple network, only to be settled on the blockchain when absolutely necessary. 2) True decentralized Bitcoin exchanges will now be possible via trading on the Ripple network." I still didn't quite get how does this work but the fact that the technology enables you to do it besides the fact that it has its own currency is pretty interesting.
dfc 14y ago
Is there any document that details how ripple works? Something like "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Currency"[1]. I browsed the site and right now it looks like a lot of individual wiki pages. Surely there is a defining document? [1] http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
- wmf 14y ago
  https://ripple.com/wiki/How_it_works https://ripple.com/wiki/How_it_works (RTFA)
  - dfc 14y ago
    Did you read my comment? When I referred to a bunch of wiki pages I was referring to (among others) the page you linked to. Are you saying that page is on par with the bitcoin paper? That's a little flimsy for a specification. Are people supposed to refer to that page's wiki revision number[1] and the fifteen other pages that are incorporated by reference/linking? RTFA? Cool your jets bro... [1] https://ripple.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_it_works&oldid=3134 https://ripple.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_it_works&old...
    - wmf 14y ago
      Sorry, I didn't read your comment carefully. I do think the Ripple wiki has a similar level of detail to the original Bitcoin paper, although I'm not a big fan of either one.
      - dfc 14y ago
        HN would be a lot better place if more people were like you and had the class+decency to recognize their error and say "sorry." I wish I could upvote your comment 100 times.
- DennisP 14y ago
  I got these from someone on reddit: http://204.83.72.148/themusicgod1/doc/ripple/ http://204.83.72.148/themusicgod1/doc/ripple/
arcticfox 14y ago
The key to the technology seems to be https://ripple.com/wiki/Consensus https://ripple.com/wiki/Consensus, which is the problem Bitcoin elegantly solved. I like this solution as well. But Bitcoin is relatively battle hardened (both theoretically and in the field), and I trust the work I have seen done on the subject. Is there some forum like bitcoin.stackexchange where I can ask/read theoretical questions of Ripple?
- coderrr 14y ago
  http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/users/85/david-schwartz?tab=answers&sort=newest http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/users/85/david-schwartz?tab... ... ctrl-f, ripple
  - dfc 14y ago
    http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/search?tab=votes&q=user%3adavid-schwartz%20ripple http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/search?tab=votes&q=user... That is all you were after right? Posts by david-schwartz about ripple?
- itafroma 14y ago
  To be a little more explicit than coderrr, Ripple is directly on-topic on Bitcoin.SE: http://meta.bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/346/adjusting-the-faq-to-make-clear-ripple-is-on-topic http://meta.bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/346/adjustin...
- nullc 14y ago
  > which is the problem Bitcoin elegantly solved. I like this solution as well. Why do you like it? The ripple model depends on picking trusted servers which cannot be controlled by the same party/common interests. The system cannot automatically pick trusted servers because there is no electronic way to determine independence, except the way that it currently works— fiat of the developers: they hardcode the servers. To me it seems that when encountering the fundamental problem bitcoin solved, "How do you achieve a fair consensus when its cheap to make sibyls?" their response was to completely punt on the issue.
speeder 14y ago
So, ripple authors keep 20% of it all. That sounds kinda shady to me. Like someone wanting to score a quick instabuck using the valuation.
- oakwhiz 14y ago
  They could have made it a blockchain-based merged mining altcoin, then it would be compatible with Bitcoin and far more accepted. The fact that they are using a centralized issuance model should make you very suspicious.
  - networked 14y ago
    Do altcoins have any legitimate reason to exist? The whole "silver to bitcoin's gold" shtick is terribly unconvincing.
    - nullc 14y ago
      They can be useful experimental platforms... also, the fundamental rules of Bitcoin are fixed— changing how Bitcoin works could be rightfully argued as theft from all the people who hold Bitcoin at the current moment. If you wanted something like Bitcoin but with different properties, different security, different inflation— an altcoin is the only way to get it. Unfortunately, practically all altcoins have been almost identical to Bitcoin.
      - networked 14y ago
        What would be interesting deviations from the bitcoin model if breaking compatibility wasn't an issue?
        nullc 14y ago
        https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas
Geee 14y ago
How are the ripples exactly put in circulation? There's a giveaway on bitcointalk.org, but that's it? Or people just buy them from OpenCoin?
- JoelKatz 14y ago
  There will be giveaways of tens of billions of ripples. By the time the giveaways end, there should be a plentiful supply.
eof 14y ago
Ripple appears to essentially be Hawala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala) in digital form. I'm actually not sure of the necessity of XRP; since bitcoin, or any other currency can propagate across the network.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- wcoenen 14y ago
  I was surprised by XRP as well. Apparently they introduced it as an anti-DOS mechanism, meaning that you have to destroy some XRP to do a ripple transaction[1]. To me it would have made more sense if each of the accounts involved in a ripple transaction could simply charge a transaction fee nominated in the currency being transacted. edit: it seems that such transaction fees are possible[2]. Not sure why XRP is needed then. [1] https://ripple.com/wiki/Ripple_credits https://ripple.com/wiki/Ripple_credits [2] http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/7590/does-ripple-ever-charge-proportional-transaction-fees http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/7590/does-ripple-...
GoWest 14y ago
I've been playing with Ripple for a couple of weeks now, and I find the best way to describe it is as a network that will finally enable freedom of banking over the Internet. Sure, we all log on to our online bank accounts, but they don't really let you take your money anywhere. Ripple will be supported by a rapidly expanding network of Gateways that will allow you to get money from your bank account onto the Ripple network, and from there, an unlimited number of financial options will be available to you. You'll be able to spend your money with any merchant with a ripple account or with a bank account tied to a Gateway. You'll be able to exchange your currency for USD/EUR/CAD/GBP/JPY/BTC/whatever you want. We'll finally be done with the archaic ACH network. $50 bank wire fees and 3% currency conversion fees will cease to exist. We have an Internet, why not use it to move money?
ElliotH 14y ago
Claimed my 10,000. Why not? Not sure I see them having much value though.
nullc 14y ago
I don't know how anyone can call it a Bitcoin competitor. Instead of a proof of work decentralized consensus ripple depends on a consensus of _trusted servers_. In Bitcoin language ripple is distributed but not decentralized. Then multiply that out by the fact that its native currency XRP was all pre-created and given to the founders and their org... people like to call Bitcoin a ponzi scheme, but policies like this make me wonder if Ripple isn't a joke designed to point out the comparative equality Bitcoin provides. It might be more accurate to call it a paypal competitor but it retains the Bitcoin scalability challenge of requiring global synchronization, so its unlikely to be a great one.
- JoelKatz 14y ago
  It is positioned to compete with other payment systems. As for scalability, it uses data structures specifically designed for rapid synchronization. But you're absolutely right that scaling it to thousands of transactions per second will be a challenge.
- nunyabuizness 14y ago
  About the "ponzi scheme" similarities; I said the same thing in more words on the subreddit, though it probably fell on a few deaf ears: http://www.reddit.com/r/ripplers/comments/18h9ir/the_one_thing_ripple_needs_more_of/c8fbdaf http://www.reddit.com/r/ripplers/comments/18h9ir/the_one_thi...

45 points by rasengan 14y ago

So rather than the opportunist/capitalist/democratic solution of bitcoin, we have a benevolent dictator handing out 'money' to whoever would like to be on the network?

JoelKatz 14y ago
You're looking at Ripple as if it were a currency rather than as what it is, a payment system.
- glomph 14y ago
  FTA ' Ripple (XRP) is a new decentralized Bitcoin-like currency '
  - JoelKatz 14y ago
    There are people who want to promote it that way, but that doesn't include the people who designed and built it. Check out http://ripple.com/ http://ripple.com/
    - nunyabuizness 14y ago
      But the point is that if they (XRP) come to have any monetary value at all, the whole thing reduces to a ponzi scheme with benefits.
  - wmf 14y ago
    I'm not totally sure on this, but AIUI XRP is a new currency and Ripple is a system that can trade any currency including XRP, BTC, USD, etc.

mtoledo 14y ago

"... inventing a decentralized way to send and exchange non Ripple currencies over its network. The latter enables two things which will truly allow Bitcoin to flourish: 1) Most Bitcoin transactions can be done through the Ripple network, only to be settled on the blockchain when absolutely necessary. 2) True decentralized Bitcoin exchanges will now be possible via trading on the Ripple network." I still didn't quite get how does this work but the fact that the technology enables you to do it besides the fact that it has its own currency is pretty interesting.

dfc 14y ago

Is there any document that details how ripple works? Something like "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Currency"[1]. I browsed the site and right now it looks like a lot of individual wiki pages. Surely there is a defining document? [1] http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

wmf 14y ago
https://ripple.com/wiki/How_it_works https://ripple.com/wiki/How_it_works (RTFA)
- dfc 14y ago
  Did you read my comment? When I referred to a bunch of wiki pages I was referring to (among others) the page you linked to. Are you saying that page is on par with the bitcoin paper? That's a little flimsy for a specification. Are people supposed to refer to that page's wiki revision number[1] and the fifteen other pages that are incorporated by reference/linking? RTFA? Cool your jets bro... [1] https://ripple.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_it_works&oldid=3134 https://ripple.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_it_works&old...
  - wmf 14y ago
    Sorry, I didn't read your comment carefully. I do think the Ripple wiki has a similar level of detail to the original Bitcoin paper, although I'm not a big fan of either one.
    - dfc 14y ago
      HN would be a lot better place if more people were like you and had the class+decency to recognize their error and say "sorry." I wish I could upvote your comment 100 times.
DennisP 14y ago
I got these from someone on reddit: http://204.83.72.148/themusicgod1/doc/ripple/ http://204.83.72.148/themusicgod1/doc/ripple/

arcticfox 14y ago

The key to the technology seems to be https://ripple.com/wiki/Consensus https://ripple.com/wiki/Consensus, which is the problem Bitcoin elegantly solved. I like this solution as well. But Bitcoin is relatively battle hardened (both theoretically and in the field), and I trust the work I have seen done on the subject. Is there some forum like bitcoin.stackexchange where I can ask/read theoretical questions of Ripple?

coderrr 14y ago
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/users/85/david-schwartz?tab=answers&sort=newest http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/users/85/david-schwartz?tab... ... ctrl-f, ripple
- dfc 14y ago
  http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/search?tab=votes&q=user%3adavid-schwartz%20ripple http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/search?tab=votes&q=user... That is all you were after right? Posts by david-schwartz about ripple?
itafroma 14y ago
To be a little more explicit than coderrr, Ripple is directly on-topic on Bitcoin.SE: http://meta.bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/346/adjusting-the-faq-to-make-clear-ripple-is-on-topic http://meta.bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/346/adjustin...
nullc 14y ago
> which is the problem Bitcoin elegantly solved. I like this solution as well. Why do you like it? The ripple model depends on picking trusted servers which cannot be controlled by the same party/common interests. The system cannot automatically pick trusted servers because there is no electronic way to determine independence, except the way that it currently works— fiat of the developers: they hardcode the servers. To me it seems that when encountering the fundamental problem bitcoin solved, "How do you achieve a fair consensus when its cheap to make sibyls?" their response was to completely punt on the issue.

speeder 14y ago

So, ripple authors keep 20% of it all. That sounds kinda shady to me. Like someone wanting to score a quick instabuck using the valuation.

oakwhiz 14y ago
They could have made it a blockchain-based merged mining altcoin, then it would be compatible with Bitcoin and far more accepted. The fact that they are using a centralized issuance model should make you very suspicious.
- networked 14y ago
  Do altcoins have any legitimate reason to exist? The whole "silver to bitcoin's gold" shtick is terribly unconvincing.
  - nullc 14y ago
    They can be useful experimental platforms... also, the fundamental rules of Bitcoin are fixed— changing how Bitcoin works could be rightfully argued as theft from all the people who hold Bitcoin at the current moment. If you wanted something like Bitcoin but with different properties, different security, different inflation— an altcoin is the only way to get it. Unfortunately, practically all altcoins have been almost identical to Bitcoin.
    - networked 14y ago
      What would be interesting deviations from the bitcoin model if breaking compatibility wasn't an issue?
      - nullc 14y ago
        https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas

Geee 14y ago

How are the ripples exactly put in circulation? There's a giveaway on bitcointalk.org, but that's it? Or people just buy them from OpenCoin?

JoelKatz 14y ago
There will be giveaways of tens of billions of ripples. By the time the giveaways end, there should be a plentiful supply.

eof 14y ago

Ripple appears to essentially be Hawala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala) in digital form. I'm actually not sure of the necessity of XRP; since bitcoin, or any other currency can propagate across the network.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
wcoenen 14y ago
I was surprised by XRP as well. Apparently they introduced it as an anti-DOS mechanism, meaning that you have to destroy some XRP to do a ripple transaction[1]. To me it would have made more sense if each of the accounts involved in a ripple transaction could simply charge a transaction fee nominated in the currency being transacted. edit: it seems that such transaction fees are possible[2]. Not sure why XRP is needed then. [1] https://ripple.com/wiki/Ripple_credits https://ripple.com/wiki/Ripple_credits [2] http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/7590/does-ripple-ever-charge-proportional-transaction-fees http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/7590/does-ripple-...

GoWest 14y ago

I've been playing with Ripple for a couple of weeks now, and I find the best way to describe it is as a network that will finally enable freedom of banking over the Internet. Sure, we all log on to our online bank accounts, but they don't really let you take your money anywhere. Ripple will be supported by a rapidly expanding network of Gateways that will allow you to get money from your bank account onto the Ripple network, and from there, an unlimited number of financial options will be available to you. You'll be able to spend your money with any merchant with a ripple account or with a bank account tied to a Gateway. You'll be able to exchange your currency for USD/EUR/CAD/GBP/JPY/BTC/whatever you want. We'll finally be done with the archaic ACH network. $50 bank wire fees and 3% currency conversion fees will cease to exist. We have an Internet, why not use it to move money?

ElliotH 14y ago

Claimed my 10,000. Why not? Not sure I see them having much value though.

nullc 14y ago

I don't know how anyone can call it a Bitcoin competitor. Instead of a proof of work decentralized consensus ripple depends on a consensus of _trusted servers_. In Bitcoin language ripple is distributed but not decentralized. Then multiply that out by the fact that its native currency XRP was all pre-created and given to the founders and their org... people like to call Bitcoin a ponzi scheme, but policies like this make me wonder if Ripple isn't a joke designed to point out the comparative equality Bitcoin provides. It might be more accurate to call it a paypal competitor but it retains the Bitcoin scalability challenge of requiring global synchronization, so its unlikely to be a great one.

JoelKatz 14y ago
It is positioned to compete with other payment systems. As for scalability, it uses data structures specifically designed for rapid synchronization. But you're absolutely right that scaling it to thousands of transactions per second will be a challenge.
nunyabuizness 14y ago
About the "ponzi scheme" similarities; I said the same thing in more words on the subreddit, though it probably fell on a few deaf ears: http://www.reddit.com/r/ripplers/comments/18h9ir/the_one_thing_ripple_needs_more_of/c8fbdaf http://www.reddit.com/r/ripplers/comments/18h9ir/the_one_thi...