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It will no doubt be shocking news to Mr. Weissmann to find out that factors such as a desire to learn more or to make new contributions to human knowledge can m

by zeteo 14y ago

It will no doubt be shocking news to Mr. Weissmann to find out that factors such as a desire to learn more or to make new contributions to human knowledge can motivate aspiring PhD candidates. It's also rather ironic to see such analyses promoted by someone who chose a career in the notoriously unprofitable field of journalism.

jseliger 14y ago
It will no doubt be shocking news to Mr. Weissmann to find out that factors such as a desire to learn more or to make new contributions to human knowledge can motivate aspiring PhD candidates. "A desire to learn" and "Make new contributions to human knowledge" are laudable goals that I admire. But, even leaving aside the important question of whether grad school as it is currently structured is a good way of pursuing either, it's hard to make new contributions to human knowledge when you're having trouble making enough money to support yourself, and it's frustrating to see your new contribution made when your buddy is working for Google and writing software that millions of people use every day—and getting paid well for it. It seems not unreasonable to me to balance life / career goals with learning and wealth. The opportunity costs of grad school are incredibly steep. If you are the rare person who doesn't care at all about material possessions or the physical quality of life, then by all means go to grad school. But if you go expecting a tenure-track job at the end—which most people seem to—then you're making a mistake. I am not at all opposed to someone who simply says, "I don't care at all about income."
- zeteo 14y ago
  I've been to graduate school and disagree with your comment about expecting a tenure-track job. When you get to know them, PhD students are not poor deluded souls slaving away in the misguided expectation of a plush, secure position at the end. They are rather intelligent, motivated individuals, who choose to work on projects that are more interesting/important than optimal ad placement or crafty financial swaps, and who are prepared to sacrifice some Caribbean cruises and latest model cars in return.
  - lutorm 14y ago
    Yeah, when I was in grad school, I and my friends said the same thing. However, when reality sinks in that choosing to work on such interesting stuff means living year-by-year on soft money at a postdoc salary, and that in many fields you have little advantage transitioning to a nonacademic job over someone with a MS, it doesn't seem like such a good deal anymore. Also, I'm not sure you're calibrated correctly. It's not about sacrificing "latest model cars", more about sacrificing a reasonable chance of retirement.
    - zeteo 14y ago
      It's a few years in your 20s working on an interesting and very difficult project. Don't worry, you'll still be able to retire at thrice that age.
  - jseliger 14y ago
    I've been to graduate school and disagree with your comment about expecting a tenure-track job. When you get to know them, PhD students are not poor deluded souls slaving away in the misguided expectation of a plush, secure position at the end. I have too (see here: http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-before-you-start-grad-school-in-english-literature-the-economic-financial-and-opportunity-costs/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-kno... for some comments, mostly job-related), and I think most grad students—at least during the first half of their experience—do think they'll be the exception. They are rather intelligent, motivated individuals, who choose to work on projects that are more interesting/important than optimal ad placement or crafty financial swaps, and who are prepared to sacrifice some Caribbean cruises and latest model cars in return. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Most seem to be pointlessly delaying adulthood. Note that there are exceptions. Without data the rest of this discussion might be pointless, but the prevalence of articles warning against PhDs seems to me to point in an important direction.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - 14y ago
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  it's frustrating to see your new contribution made when your buddy is working for Google and writing software that millions of people use every day—and getting paid well for it. I don't think the average grad-student could work at Google instead. My personal experience is that Google keeps having its recruiters call me periodically, and then rejecting me for even internships after interviewing. I don't even get the questions wrong anymore, so I feel like I just somehow suck, despite being a CS grad-student at a well-regarded institution.
xijuan 14y ago
Love your comment!!! I have met people who gave me weird looks because I want to do a PhD. And she said "what is so good at doing a PhD. A professor can't make more money than me as a small restaurant owner." She just doesn't get it..It is not about the money...sigh
axusgrad 14y ago
The problem is the number of PhD's doing "nothing" after education is going up. "You don't need a PhD to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's a dropout, don't do shit."

by zeteo 14y ago

It will no doubt be shocking news to Mr. Weissmann to find out that factors such as a desire to learn more or to make new contributions to human knowledge can motivate aspiring PhD candidates. It's also rather ironic to see such analyses promoted by someone who chose a career in the notoriously unprofitable field of journalism.

jseliger 14y ago

It will no doubt be shocking news to Mr. Weissmann to find out that factors such as a desire to learn more or to make new contributions to human knowledge can motivate aspiring PhD candidates. "A desire to learn" and "Make new contributions to human knowledge" are laudable goals that I admire. But, even leaving aside the important question of whether grad school as it is currently structured is a good way of pursuing either, it's hard to make new contributions to human knowledge when you're having trouble making enough money to support yourself, and it's frustrating to see your new contribution made when your buddy is working for Google and writing software that millions of people use every day—and getting paid well for it. It seems not unreasonable to me to balance life / career goals with learning and wealth. The opportunity costs of grad school are incredibly steep. If you are the rare person who doesn't care at all about material possessions or the physical quality of life, then by all means go to grad school. But if you go expecting a tenure-track job at the end—which most people seem to—then you're making a mistake. I am not at all opposed to someone who simply says, "I don't care at all about income."

zeteo 14y ago
I've been to graduate school and disagree with your comment about expecting a tenure-track job. When you get to know them, PhD students are not poor deluded souls slaving away in the misguided expectation of a plush, secure position at the end. They are rather intelligent, motivated individuals, who choose to work on projects that are more interesting/important than optimal ad placement or crafty financial swaps, and who are prepared to sacrifice some Caribbean cruises and latest model cars in return.
- lutorm 14y ago
  Yeah, when I was in grad school, I and my friends said the same thing. However, when reality sinks in that choosing to work on such interesting stuff means living year-by-year on soft money at a postdoc salary, and that in many fields you have little advantage transitioning to a nonacademic job over someone with a MS, it doesn't seem like such a good deal anymore. Also, I'm not sure you're calibrated correctly. It's not about sacrificing "latest model cars", more about sacrificing a reasonable chance of retirement.
  - zeteo 14y ago
    It's a few years in your 20s working on an interesting and very difficult project. Don't worry, you'll still be able to retire at thrice that age.
- jseliger 14y ago
  I've been to graduate school and disagree with your comment about expecting a tenure-track job. When you get to know them, PhD students are not poor deluded souls slaving away in the misguided expectation of a plush, secure position at the end. I have too (see here: http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-before-you-start-grad-school-in-english-literature-the-economic-financial-and-opportunity-costs/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-kno... for some comments, mostly job-related), and I think most grad students—at least during the first half of their experience—do think they'll be the exception. They are rather intelligent, motivated individuals, who choose to work on projects that are more interesting/important than optimal ad placement or crafty financial swaps, and who are prepared to sacrifice some Caribbean cruises and latest model cars in return. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Most seem to be pointlessly delaying adulthood. Note that there are exceptions. Without data the rest of this discussion might be pointless, but the prevalence of articles warning against PhDs seems to me to point in an important direction.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - 14y ago
eli_gottlieb 14y ago
it's frustrating to see your new contribution made when your buddy is working for Google and writing software that millions of people use every day—and getting paid well for it. I don't think the average grad-student could work at Google instead. My personal experience is that Google keeps having its recruiters call me periodically, and then rejecting me for even internships after interviewing. I don't even get the questions wrong anymore, so I feel like I just somehow suck, despite being a CS grad-student at a well-regarded institution.

xijuan 14y ago

Love your comment!!! I have met people who gave me weird looks because I want to do a PhD. And she said "what is so good at doing a PhD. A professor can't make more money than me as a small restaurant owner." She just doesn't get it..It is not about the money...sigh

axusgrad 14y ago

The problem is the number of PhD's doing "nothing" after education is going up. "You don't need a PhD to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's a dropout, don't do shit."