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Parrots call each other by names as well[1] and crows have been shown to speak in two different dialects depending if they are with a group or among individuals

Parrots call each other by names as well[1] and crows have been shown to speak in two different dialects depending if they are with a group or among individuals[2]. In the same link about crows, they have also been seen using tools in the wild and in experiments using "meta tools", something that only primates have been observed doing (using one tool to reach another tool that will be used for their end goal [generally food]). It's quite amazing how much we take the animals around us for granted sometimes since all of this, like the dolphins is really new research that has only hit the tip of the iceberg. The documentary about crows from PBS is quite insightful (full episode is at the link below if your region allows it). I was never much of a fan of crows and considered them kind of an annoyance. However, after watching it, I gained much more respect for their intelligence and complexity. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed9A4HPdXgQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed9A4HPdXgQ [2] http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/a-murder-of-crows/full-episode/5977/ http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/a-murder-of-crows/fu... edit: the OP link actually mentions those particular crows and their tool usage in one of the slides.

Catalina 14y ago
Modern culture is filled with prejudices towards non-human forms of life. Not only are animals taken for granted and exploited for the well-being of the human species, which is wrongfully considered a "superior" life form, but life itself is taken for granted. Realizing just "now" that non-human life forms are more complex than we thought is simply because our ability to even be open minded about that possibility was completely suffocated by the hubris of humanity.
- yareally 14y ago
  Indeed. I'd say a mixture of people having more time to study such things as well as people getting over the idea that we have nothing to learn from animals. I study animal intelligence as sort of a hobby in my free time and have focused on birds lately since they seem to get less recognition for intelligence than mammals or other animals that dominate television shows. Everyone knows parrots can mimic, but little mainstream news goes beyond that. Corvids (jays[1], crows[2], starlings, etc) can actually mimic in a similar manner. Birds in general are quite misrepresented and phrases like "eat like a bird" or "bird brained" are quite incorrect. We all come from the same basic building blocks through evolution, so it would be quite weird to say that we don't share traits with our fellow animals. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T6pUxthClw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T6pUxthClw [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgTCoTD3BWI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgTCoTD3BWI
- shmageggy 14y ago
  Not just modern culture, but really for the history of civilization. In fact, discoveries like these are starting to make us more empathetic, finally. During the 18th century, not only were all non-humans considered mindless automatons, many humans were too. The early descriptions of indigenous people by the European whites are pretty appalling.
  - mjmahone17 14y ago
    It's ironic in its own way, given how many (not all, but many) of the indigineous groups treated animals and their ecosystems with more respect than they were given by other humans. In a lot of ways, it seems like we're having to relearn a lot of the values that cultures with longer histories have known for hundreds of years.
    - ekianjo 14y ago
      Let's be careful about "values from cultures with longer histories". They may have had good values but that did not prevent them from slaughtering each other all the same. Some american indians were known to be very violent yet very much in harmony with nature. So, what good does it do in the end?
      - yareally 14y ago
        > So, what good does it do in the end? Adopt the good ideas of the past and avoid (and learn from) the mistakes of the past so we do not repeat them. One can respect the environment and animals without smashing heads. Pretty much every culture has had a violent past at some point, even cultures like the Romans and the Greeks were rather barbaric by modern standards (especially the Romans). Our descendants will probably think the same about us to a point as well in a couple hundred years.
        ekianjo 14y ago
        You do not have to go back very far to find barbary even in our civilization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert-Fran%C3%A7ois_Damiens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert-Fran%C3%A7ois_Damiens) and this happened in the same century as the human rights philosophers. That was just a few generations ago.
pyre 14y ago
A Murder Of Crows was done in concert w/ CBC, though they may have done their own post-production work (I've only watched the PBS version). Canadians should probably look to the CBC[1] to watch it. There's also an interesting blurb from the director here[2]. [1]: http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/natureofthings/2009/murderofcrows/ http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/natureofthings/2009/murderof... [2]: http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/natureofthings/2009/murderofcrows/director.html http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/natureofthings/2009/murderof...
- yareally 14y ago
  Wow, that second link was a really good article. Thanks for sharing. I didn't realize crows were that camera shy or observant that people were watching them back. Makes sense though they they would be paranoid when someone or some thing is paying them too much attention as 99% of the time it means something bad will come next.
  - nealabq 14y ago
    Once I cornered a rabbit in my ally. The usual way out was blocked, and the rabbit was frantically searching the far wall for another escape while I watched. After a bit I was momentarily distracted, and the rabbit choose that moment to dash past me. Apparently the rabbit knew my attention had turned. As would a crow. They don't need our special mental abilities -- language and lambdas -- to model the mental states of those around them. (In other words, even the rabbits could tell last Saturday's party sucked as soon as they entered the room. Which is why none of them stayed.:)
    - yareally 14y ago
      I guess what just surprised me was crows would be that alert when they really have the advantage on us when it comes to escaping and being aware from having the high ground and ability to fly (well unless a person is hunting them, which is unlikely in a city). That combined with their communication with each other of potential threats. I grew up on a farm around lots of wild animals and you're correct about rabbits though from my times of trying to catch them or saving baby bunnies from the cats. They're very observant, but I always figured they had much more reason to be from being alone and also limited to the ground without the ability to climb trees. I've seen some birds that have little awareness (mourning doves and some sparrows). Sometimes they don't even realize you're almost on top of them until you're right next to them and then they freak out and fly away.

Catalina 14y ago

Modern culture is filled with prejudices towards non-human forms of life. Not only are animals taken for granted and exploited for the well-being of the human species, which is wrongfully considered a "superior" life form, but life itself is taken for granted. Realizing just "now" that non-human life forms are more complex than we thought is simply because our ability to even be open minded about that possibility was completely suffocated by the hubris of humanity.

yareally 14y ago
Indeed. I'd say a mixture of people having more time to study such things as well as people getting over the idea that we have nothing to learn from animals. I study animal intelligence as sort of a hobby in my free time and have focused on birds lately since they seem to get less recognition for intelligence than mammals or other animals that dominate television shows. Everyone knows parrots can mimic, but little mainstream news goes beyond that. Corvids (jays[1], crows[2], starlings, etc) can actually mimic in a similar manner. Birds in general are quite misrepresented and phrases like "eat like a bird" or "bird brained" are quite incorrect. We all come from the same basic building blocks through evolution, so it would be quite weird to say that we don't share traits with our fellow animals. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T6pUxthClw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T6pUxthClw [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgTCoTD3BWI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgTCoTD3BWI
shmageggy 14y ago
Not just modern culture, but really for the history of civilization. In fact, discoveries like these are starting to make us more empathetic, finally. During the 18th century, not only were all non-humans considered mindless automatons, many humans were too. The early descriptions of indigenous people by the European whites are pretty appalling.
- mjmahone17 14y ago
  It's ironic in its own way, given how many (not all, but many) of the indigineous groups treated animals and their ecosystems with more respect than they were given by other humans. In a lot of ways, it seems like we're having to relearn a lot of the values that cultures with longer histories have known for hundreds of years.
  - ekianjo 14y ago
    Let's be careful about "values from cultures with longer histories". They may have had good values but that did not prevent them from slaughtering each other all the same. Some american indians were known to be very violent yet very much in harmony with nature. So, what good does it do in the end?
    - yareally 14y ago
      > So, what good does it do in the end? Adopt the good ideas of the past and avoid (and learn from) the mistakes of the past so we do not repeat them. One can respect the environment and animals without smashing heads. Pretty much every culture has had a violent past at some point, even cultures like the Romans and the Greeks were rather barbaric by modern standards (especially the Romans). Our descendants will probably think the same about us to a point as well in a couple hundred years.
      - ekianjo 14y ago
        You do not have to go back very far to find barbary even in our civilization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert-Fran%C3%A7ois_Damiens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert-Fran%C3%A7ois_Damiens) and this happened in the same century as the human rights philosophers. That was just a few generations ago.

pyre 14y ago

A Murder Of Crows was done in concert w/ CBC, though they may have done their own post-production work (I've only watched the PBS version). Canadians should probably look to the CBC[1] to watch it. There's also an interesting blurb from the director here[2]. [1]: http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/natureofthings/2009/murderofcrows/ http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/natureofthings/2009/murderof... [2]: http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/natureofthings/2009/murderofcrows/director.html http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/natureofthings/2009/murderof...

yareally 14y ago
Wow, that second link was a really good article. Thanks for sharing. I didn't realize crows were that camera shy or observant that people were watching them back. Makes sense though they they would be paranoid when someone or some thing is paying them too much attention as 99% of the time it means something bad will come next.
- nealabq 14y ago
  Once I cornered a rabbit in my ally. The usual way out was blocked, and the rabbit was frantically searching the far wall for another escape while I watched. After a bit I was momentarily distracted, and the rabbit choose that moment to dash past me. Apparently the rabbit knew my attention had turned. As would a crow. They don't need our special mental abilities -- language and lambdas -- to model the mental states of those around them. (In other words, even the rabbits could tell last Saturday's party sucked as soon as they entered the room. Which is why none of them stayed.:)
  - yareally 14y ago
    I guess what just surprised me was crows would be that alert when they really have the advantage on us when it comes to escaping and being aware from having the high ground and ability to fly (well unless a person is hunting them, which is unlikely in a city). That combined with their communication with each other of potential threats. I grew up on a farm around lots of wild animals and you're correct about rabbits though from my times of trying to catch them or saving baby bunnies from the cats. They're very observant, but I always figured they had much more reason to be from being alone and also limited to the ground without the ability to climb trees. I've seen some birds that have little awareness (mourning doves and some sparrows). Sometimes they don't even realize you're almost on top of them until you're right next to them and then they freak out and fly away.