3 ms·

Is changing the behavior of a group of units because it happens to be grouped with a distant unit really a good thing for the game? It makes for a good story,

by GavinB 14y ago

Is changing the behavior of a group of units because it happens to be grouped with a distant unit really a good thing for the game? It makes for a good story, and it's great fun for the person who discovers it. Players like it, because it lets them beat new players even more easily. But players don't always know what's best for them. This is why Starcraft 2 multiplayer is structured to force players to play on complicated, resource balanced Blizzard approved maps. Starcraft 1 allowed ranked games on any map, and players largely played simplified, resource-soaked maps. Or played nothing but Big Game Hunters and Lost Temple. This was what players thought they wanted, but it wasn't what was best for the game.

edias 14y ago
Your comment on starcraft maps is off. Both SC2 and BW have two sets of maps, UMS maps with custom settings used for fun games and competitive maps made to be racially balanced and produce "good" games. In SC2 UMS maps are part of the arcade where as ladder games are played on tournament maps. The same is true for BW but blizzard didn't have an official ladder so 99% of the games on battle.net were UMS maps, but ICCUP ladder had the same competitive maps you see in SC2. As far as the glitches are concerned, they were undoubtedly beneficial to BW, as the last balance patch was in 2001 when the game was in its infancy as far as strategy goes. For example TvZ could not be played in its current form without muta stacking and terran's still have more success despite it. 99% of players would never use these tricks of have them used against them, but it allowed for the game to advance strategically and added an additional element of skill.
- tekromancr 14y ago
  BW?
  - barbs 14y ago
    Brood War
  - edias 14y ago
    Broodwar, the expansion to the original starcraft.
GhotiFish 14y ago
Supreme commander 2 used flowfield for their pathfinding. Flowfield does an ok job, but it actively tries to group units together by giving them little pushes in the correct direction. As a result, in competitive play, players would leave one or two units at home, when they advance they would select all their front line units and move forward, when they retreat they would select all their front line units plus the units at base, and flowfield would cause the front line retreat to exceed unit velocity!
hlvn 14y ago
I think you grossly overestimate Blizzard's grasp of balance when compared to the SC/SC2 communities' grasp of balance. Compare the solutions and balance opinions of Dustin "Rocks are Balanced" Browder to Sean "Day[9]" Plott, for example. In the mutalisk stacking example, it ended up being a very good thing in terms of metagame balance. At the time, top Zerg players were having tremendous problems breaching Terran static defenses, and it proved to be relatively "fair" for them to have that option in the mid-game. Also worth noting is that just because it's simple doesn't make it easy; it still required good APM/Micro to manage and a solid understanding of the magic-boxing techniques. Even now, in SC2, the idea that workers don't collide with each other when given a command to mine a remote mineral patch is necessary at high levels of play to use the drone drilling technique in order to avoid a pylon ramp-block, which is an extremely simple technique for the protoss to use, but disproportionately difficult situation for the Zerg to deal with. Even with the drone drilling technique, it's still relatively uphill and requires good micro. (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9CA9AahV1E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9CA9AahV1E ) As for the complicated "Blizzard Approved" maps, they're present in the ladders, but most have tweaks. Of particular note are the GSL (A/THE pro-league in south korea) maps that actually include a neutral supply depot at the bottom of the main ramp to prevent pylon ramp-blocks from being viable so as to prevent drone drilling from being necessary. Similarly, KESPA (korean e-sports association) was one of the driving forces for map balance in brood war, and their version of the Lost Temple was considered very balanced for reasons much more strategically significant than "people like it".

by GavinB 14y ago

edias 14y ago

Your comment on starcraft maps is off. Both SC2 and BW have two sets of maps, UMS maps with custom settings used for fun games and competitive maps made to be racially balanced and produce "good" games. In SC2 UMS maps are part of the arcade where as ladder games are played on tournament maps. The same is true for BW but blizzard didn't have an official ladder so 99% of the games on battle.net were UMS maps, but ICCUP ladder had the same competitive maps you see in SC2. As far as the glitches are concerned, they were undoubtedly beneficial to BW, as the last balance patch was in 2001 when the game was in its infancy as far as strategy goes. For example TvZ could not be played in its current form without muta stacking and terran's still have more success despite it. 99% of players would never use these tricks of have them used against them, but it allowed for the game to advance strategically and added an additional element of skill.

tekromancr 14y ago
BW?
- barbs 14y ago
  Brood War
- edias 14y ago
  Broodwar, the expansion to the original starcraft.

GhotiFish 14y ago

Supreme commander 2 used flowfield for their pathfinding. Flowfield does an ok job, but it actively tries to group units together by giving them little pushes in the correct direction. As a result, in competitive play, players would leave one or two units at home, when they advance they would select all their front line units and move forward, when they retreat they would select all their front line units plus the units at base, and flowfield would cause the front line retreat to exceed unit velocity!

hlvn 14y ago

I think you grossly overestimate Blizzard's grasp of balance when compared to the SC/SC2 communities' grasp of balance. Compare the solutions and balance opinions of Dustin "Rocks are Balanced" Browder to Sean "Day[9]" Plott, for example. In the mutalisk stacking example, it ended up being a very good thing in terms of metagame balance. At the time, top Zerg players were having tremendous problems breaching Terran static defenses, and it proved to be relatively "fair" for them to have that option in the mid-game. Also worth noting is that just because it's simple doesn't make it easy; it still required good APM/Micro to manage and a solid understanding of the magic-boxing techniques. Even now, in SC2, the idea that workers don't collide with each other when given a command to mine a remote mineral patch is necessary at high levels of play to use the drone drilling technique in order to avoid a pylon ramp-block, which is an extremely simple technique for the protoss to use, but disproportionately difficult situation for the Zerg to deal with. Even with the drone drilling technique, it's still relatively uphill and requires good micro. (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9CA9AahV1E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9CA9AahV1E ) As for the complicated "Blizzard Approved" maps, they're present in the ladders, but most have tweaks. Of particular note are the GSL (A/THE pro-league in south korea) maps that actually include a neutral supply depot at the bottom of the main ramp to prevent pylon ramp-blocks from being viable so as to prevent drone drilling from being necessary. Similarly, KESPA (korean e-sports association) was one of the driving forces for map balance in brood war, and their version of the Lost Temple was considered very balanced for reasons much more strategically significant than "people like it".