4 ms·

One of the reasons Starcraft is interesting as an e-sport is because bugs like this have kept the game in racial balance for over a decade. For example, the ga

by CyrusL 14y ago

One of the reasons Starcraft is interesting as an e-sport is because bugs like this have kept the game in racial balance for over a decade. For example, the game was not designed to give mutalisks the ability to stack on top of each other. However, at some point in the early 2000s, it was discovered that when 11 mutalisks were grouped with 1 overlord, the mutas tended to stack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfqQYJzq7o0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfqQYJzq7o0 . This meant that an attacking player could deal the damage of 11 units while only exposing the surface area of 1 of them. Using this technique, a pro gamer named July won the 3 OSL tournaments: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/July http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/July . With respect to the path-finding behavior described in the article, there is a funny aspect the author doesn't mention: mining workers still collide with buildings while mining, just not other workers. This lead to a technique known as the manner pylon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmS2ghQyAYI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmS2ghQyAYI . If a protoss player builds a pylon in their opponent's mineral line with great timing, they can trap their opponent's workers between the minerals and the pylon. This renders the workers useless until the pylon is killed. In Starcraft-speak, "manner" means being respectful (such as saying "good game" when you lose). The manner pylon got it's name because it is so incredibly annoying to deal with, it will cause anyone to lose their manners. For those of you who might be familiar with Starcraft, but not the competitive scene, you should know that pro players are executing these techniques at a rate of hundreds of APM (actions per minute): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4UTDudShDY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4UTDudShDY

bradleyjg 14y ago
There were all kinds of discoveries like that. I remember when the reaver drop was invented by someone out of MIT. Can't remember his handle but he was one of the top players pre-brood war. Edit: Found him, Zileas aka Tom Cadwell. Brings back the memories.
- Rastafarian 14y ago
  Reaver drop was not invented by Zileas, he only popularized it.
  - rhokstar 14y ago
    This is true!
  - bradleyjg 14y ago
    Do you happen to know who invented it? Was it someone else at MIT?
    - mcfunley 14y ago
      1_COOL_GUY was #1 on bnet for a long while using the reaver drop coupled with the map hack. Not sure if he invented this either, but this was before Zileas (a legit player) came along. (Can't believe I remember these details.)
GavinB 14y ago
Is changing the behavior of a group of units because it happens to be grouped with a distant unit really a good thing for the game? It makes for a good story, and it's great fun for the person who discovers it. Players like it, because it lets them beat new players even more easily. But players don't always know what's best for them. This is why Starcraft 2 multiplayer is structured to force players to play on complicated, resource balanced Blizzard approved maps. Starcraft 1 allowed ranked games on any map, and players largely played simplified, resource-soaked maps. Or played nothing but Big Game Hunters and Lost Temple. This was what players thought they wanted, but it wasn't what was best for the game.
- edias 14y ago
  Your comment on starcraft maps is off. Both SC2 and BW have two sets of maps, UMS maps with custom settings used for fun games and competitive maps made to be racially balanced and produce "good" games. In SC2 UMS maps are part of the arcade where as ladder games are played on tournament maps. The same is true for BW but blizzard didn't have an official ladder so 99% of the games on battle.net were UMS maps, but ICCUP ladder had the same competitive maps you see in SC2. As far as the glitches are concerned, they were undoubtedly beneficial to BW, as the last balance patch was in 2001 when the game was in its infancy as far as strategy goes. For example TvZ could not be played in its current form without muta stacking and terran's still have more success despite it. 99% of players would never use these tricks of have them used against them, but it allowed for the game to advance strategically and added an additional element of skill.
  - tekromancr 14y ago
    BW?
    - barbs 14y ago
      Brood War
    - edias 14y ago
      Broodwar, the expansion to the original starcraft.
saraid216 14y ago
> One of the reasons Starcraft is interesting as an e-sport is because bugs like this have kept the game in racial balance for over a decade. It's worth pointing out that I've seen a similar argument made for Street Fighter 2: that a lack of rebalancing is what made it such a popular tournament play, or some such.
tec27 14y ago
While this is a fairly good explanation of some interesting things about Starcraft, I think something truly interesting about mutalisk stacking in particular is its actual discovery date. It wasn't, in fact, discovered in the 'early 2000s', but rather in mid 2006, a good 7 years after the game was released. Prior to this trick's discovery, players stacked mutalisks by right clicking the group onto a mineral patch or gas geyser, which causes them to clump up more than right-clicking onto the ground (July, who you mention, actually won at least the first 2 OSLs without the benefit of this trick). I would imagine that air units in Starcraft have a similar hack applied to their moving collision detection as the workers do with mining, as the exhibit a lot of the same behaviors (okay with being on top of each other while moving, spread out as soon as they stop moving).

by CyrusL 14y ago

bradleyjg 14y ago

There were all kinds of discoveries like that. I remember when the reaver drop was invented by someone out of MIT. Can't remember his handle but he was one of the top players pre-brood war. Edit: Found him, Zileas aka Tom Cadwell. Brings back the memories.

Rastafarian 14y ago
Reaver drop was not invented by Zileas, he only popularized it.
- rhokstar 14y ago
  This is true!
- bradleyjg 14y ago
  Do you happen to know who invented it? Was it someone else at MIT?
  - mcfunley 14y ago
    1_COOL_GUY was #1 on bnet for a long while using the reaver drop coupled with the map hack. Not sure if he invented this either, but this was before Zileas (a legit player) came along. (Can't believe I remember these details.)

GavinB 14y ago

Is changing the behavior of a group of units because it happens to be grouped with a distant unit really a good thing for the game? It makes for a good story, and it's great fun for the person who discovers it. Players like it, because it lets them beat new players even more easily. But players don't always know what's best for them. This is why Starcraft 2 multiplayer is structured to force players to play on complicated, resource balanced Blizzard approved maps. Starcraft 1 allowed ranked games on any map, and players largely played simplified, resource-soaked maps. Or played nothing but Big Game Hunters and Lost Temple. This was what players thought they wanted, but it wasn't what was best for the game.

edias 14y ago
Your comment on starcraft maps is off. Both SC2 and BW have two sets of maps, UMS maps with custom settings used for fun games and competitive maps made to be racially balanced and produce "good" games. In SC2 UMS maps are part of the arcade where as ladder games are played on tournament maps. The same is true for BW but blizzard didn't have an official ladder so 99% of the games on battle.net were UMS maps, but ICCUP ladder had the same competitive maps you see in SC2. As far as the glitches are concerned, they were undoubtedly beneficial to BW, as the last balance patch was in 2001 when the game was in its infancy as far as strategy goes. For example TvZ could not be played in its current form without muta stacking and terran's still have more success despite it. 99% of players would never use these tricks of have them used against them, but it allowed for the game to advance strategically and added an additional element of skill.
- tekromancr 14y ago
  BW?
  - barbs 14y ago
    Brood War
  - edias 14y ago
    Broodwar, the expansion to the original starcraft.

saraid216 14y ago

> One of the reasons Starcraft is interesting as an e-sport is because bugs like this have kept the game in racial balance for over a decade. It's worth pointing out that I've seen a similar argument made for Street Fighter 2: that a lack of rebalancing is what made it such a popular tournament play, or some such.

tec27 14y ago

While this is a fairly good explanation of some interesting things about Starcraft, I think something truly interesting about mutalisk stacking in particular is its actual discovery date. It wasn't, in fact, discovered in the 'early 2000s', but rather in mid 2006, a good 7 years after the game was released. Prior to this trick's discovery, players stacked mutalisks by right clicking the group onto a mineral patch or gas geyser, which causes them to clump up more than right-clicking onto the ground (July, who you mention, actually won at least the first 2 OSLs without the benefit of this trick). I would imagine that air units in Starcraft have a similar hack applied to their moving collision detection as the workers do with mining, as the exhibit a lot of the same behaviors (okay with being on top of each other while moving, spread out as soon as they stop moving).