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I have an idea that the differences in work ethic across Europe may be partly to do with climate and partly to do with language. In France, the verb 'work' is
by iuguy 14y ago
I have an idea that the differences in work ethic across Europe may be partly to do with climate and partly to do with language.
In France, the verb 'work' is travailler. Traditionally this meant literally to toil, a chore, an obligation. In Germany, the word werken means to build, create, do. The German word more aligned with travailler is arbeit. This lack of correlation in the word work I believe may explain the differences in the approach and cultural views towards work that I see across Europe, particularly with latin root romance languages.
The second factor I've seen is climate. In the more productive northern European countries, it's generally colder. There's been a historical need for produce and for people to work (not endure or arbeit) to trade in order to get everything you need in terms of food and shelter.
South of the Olive line something strange happens. If you look at Spain you'll see that there's a long siesta during the day. This is because for a large part of the year Spain's too hot to work in during most of the afternoon. While we have air conditioning now, hundreds of years of cultural differences I feel may have led us with ingrained ideas about what work is and what it means, with those differences reinforced by climate.
For example, in Turkey there's no such thing as a siesta (there's no time in Istanbul for one anyway). Culturally it doesn't really exist, yet it's as hot as parts of Spain that do.
I could be completely wrong about this, but it's just something I've noticed. I do believe that the unions are crippling France's productivity, but France is as likely to change in the short term as the rest of Europe to France's view IMHO.
EDIT : I'm not saying that Germans, Brits or whoever are harder working, or that the French, Spanish, Moomins are lazy, far from it. I'm pointing out some differences in how people perceive work (i.e. neutrally or with negative connotations) based on language and culture, based solely on my own experience. For what it's worth I've worked with lazy Brits and Germans and hard working French and Spanish people. The Moomins I've never worked with, sorry if you're a Moomin and my ignorance upset you.
raverbashing makes a good point here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5252446 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5252446
- eqreqeq 14y ago>>In France, the verb 'work' is travailler. Traditionally this meant literally to toil, a chore, an obligation. "travailler" comes from Latin, in spanish the same word is "trabajar", notice the resemblance. It literally means "to work" in english. Just saying this because I don't really buy it that "travailler" in French means "to toil".
- Fargren 14y agoTravail (like trabajo) means labor, effort. It's different from "empoi" ("empleo" in español), which has a bigger relation with being useful, and is also less commonly used.
- galactus 14y agoFrance is one of most productive countries in the world, when measured as GDP per hour-worked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita_per_hour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP...
- LockeWatts 14y agoThat could be due to the diminishing returns of working longer hours after a certain point. They work fewer hours, so are more productive per hour, but sacrifice overall production to do so.
- hollerith 14y agoRight, but that is partly or wholly because French unemployment is higher than it is in the US with the result that the less productive workers do not have jobs and consequently are not included in the statistic. If we use a different statistic, namely, GDP per capita, France is significantly lower than the US.
- galactus 14y agoI dont think the unemployment affects the stats that much but anyway the US has a higher GDP per capita and higher GDP per hour worked than France. I was just replying to the common stereotype that France is significatively less productive than other european countries (say, Germany). Another fact that contradicts that stereotype is France's position as a recipient of foreign direct investment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_received_FDI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_received_F... Why would people invest so much in a supposedly "lazy" country?
- cpleppert 14y agoGDP per capita doesn't track unemployment either. France isn't 'significantly' lower than the US either it is about where Germany is and Britain is far behind them both.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- Kurtz79 14y agoSorry, but there are so many stereotypes here that I don't know where to begin. I'll just say that right now I'm in Spain, it's frigging cold and I have been working for nearly 12 hours straight.
- shin_lao 14y agoYes, you're most likely wrong. France is a hard working country. It's not where it is today just because there is an Eiffel tower and great bread. I realize that bashing France is always enjoyable but although its going downhill it's still one of the richest and most powerful countries in the world. People have more holidays but work for longer hours. One example of one factory doesn't say much about the country as a whole. For the record, in Germany, 32 hours a week is frequent in many factories (VW). The question one could ask, is how come the factory reached a point where people work only three hours per day? It's however true that the minimum wages are far above the minimum wages in India or China. I'm not sure dropping wages to Chinese levels is the solution. I'm not saying there aren't any problem. There is a recurrent problem with unions in France and the lack of communication between unions and employers. Work laws are rigid and the amount of tax companies suffer clearly costs a great deal of opportunities to the country. There is also a recent, negative shift, toward work and effort in general, especially in the youngest generation. I'm however afraid this might not be specific to France.
- iuguy 14y ago> France is a hard working country. It's not where it is today just because there is an Eiffel tower and great bread. I'm not saying that it isn't. Sorry, I was commenting on etymological and cultural differences. Most of the French people I've worked with have a very different view of work compared to most of the British and German people I've worked with. My thoughts on this are that it's cultural, and that the etymology may correlate with this.
- pcrh 14y agoThe letter refers to working for three hours, not an official three-hour day. It's probably hyperbole.
- nostromo 14y agoAnother theory often floated is the cultural history of Protestants vs Catholics. http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/pressreleases/south_debt_crisis/ http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/pressreleases/south_...
- Camillo 14y agoIt's the same thing over and over. When people like two things, they tend to want to see connections between them. Max Weber liked protestantism and capitalism, so he wrote "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism". iuguy likes Northen Europe and hard work, so he posted that collection of stereotypes. Redditors like atheism and science, and to hear them tell it, the two things are basically one and the same. It's just a very basic psychological mechanism of likes and dislikes, prejudice and favoritism, but masquerading as something intellectual.
- iuguy 14y agoI've read about that, and to be fair religion has a major cultural impact but I'm not sure how significant it all is in the grand scheme of things (given changes in religion over the years, reformations etc.).
- pcrh 14y agoThat whole theory ignores the fact that the most productive parts of Germany are historically Catholic.
- kybernetyk 14y ago> In Germany, the word werk means to build, create, do. 'Werk' is a noun being either a factory or a creation of an artist. But to work still means 'arbeiten' in German. 'werken' in the sense of 'to work' is dutch. Maybe you mean this? Other than that: I can tell you that my German colleagues aren't really more motivated or hardworking than my French, English or Polish colleagues. That hard working German stereotype is a nice stereotype but it isn't really all too true.
- raverbashing 14y agoWell, you are wrong on the etymology of 'travail' (as is everybody else), but maybe you got it less wrong (And curiously, in the latin languages it's all the same root) The real origin is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripalium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripalium "A tripalium is a three-staked instrument of torture."
- cpleppert 14y ago>>In France, the verb 'work' is travailler. Traditionally this meant literally to toil, a chore, an obligation. In Germany, the word werken means to build, create, do. The German word more aligned with travailler is arbeit. This lack of correlation in the word work I believe may explain the differences in the approach and cultural views towards work that I see across Europe, particularly with latin root romance languages. This makes no sense at all. What is the mechanism at play here? Languages with different etymologies for the verb to work impress those differences into the cultures that use the language? Travailler doesn't really mean toil at all, besogne is the word for really hard chores, lit. Travail pénible. There is no connotation that work is always a chore. French has the same type of words for making things as German goes. This goes back to the agriculture/craftsmen distinction in the middle ages. There is no difference. >>The second factor I've seen is climate. In the more productive northern European countries, it's generally colder. There's been a historical need for produce and for people to work (not endure or arbeit) to trade in order to get everything you need in terms of food and shelter. Productivity isn't equivalent to working hard at all. Differences in productivity and wealth in european countries generally go back to pre-industrial developments in technology. Hotter climates tend to not be as integrated into Europe due to simple geography. The alps and the Pyrenees are two examples. You can also look at political developments that helped give rise to reliable systems of law absent elsewhere. As an Arab commented during the crusades, the crusaders could depend on freedom from arbitrary judgments. Again, this development seems to be based on geography but has nothing to do with the climate per se.