4 ms·

I don't get why people are building these fancy new editors - You can get both Emacs and Vim to behave Textmate like in many ways. They are both usable everywh

by fendale 18y ago

I don't get why people are building these fancy new editors - You can get both Emacs and Vim to behave Textmate like in many ways. They are both usable everywhere, including in a terminal. No matter which editor you want to use, you have to learn it and it takes time. A few years back I decided between Emacs and Textmate and learned Emacs - the main reason was because I can still use it when I am forced into a terminal or Windows.

peregrine 18y ago
Not everyone is a huge fan of re-learning how to type. Cause that's really how your doing it, with all the chording and such. Some of us are just used to typing in a box and hitting file->save to save. People create new editors cause there is a need to fill.
- parbo 18y ago
  A standard Emacs install fulfills that requirement nicely.
eli 18y ago
The fact that you listed two be-all end-all text editors suggests that neither of them is the perfect solution for everyone...
- fendale 18y ago
  OK, good point. But isn't writing a text editor one of those garden path problems - a near never ending amount of work to get to just what exists already? I guess I also wonder what inspires developers to start new text editor projects too! Perhaps its just dis-satisfaction with what is there already.
  - gnaritas 18y ago
    There's a reason you have to be convinced to learn emacs or vi, the user experience is horrible until after you've finished climbing a learning cliff. They work differently than just about every other text editor in the world because they're so old that they don't by default use modern hotkeys people are accustomed to. Any debate about them being better really misses the point, it's the dvorak querty argument all over. Better doesn't matter as much as familiar to new users. Textmate is immediately useful to a new user and feels like a modern editor. Emacs and vi look and feel archaic and require too much effort to feel productive in. That's my two cents anyway after many attempts to use both. Can't stand vi, can get by with emacs just don't really dig it. For quick editing in a shell I just use nano because it's usually just editing of config files.
    - erlanger 18y ago
      Actually, I hate editing any code outside of Vi nowadays. I've gotten used to 'cb', 'dat', etc. I've been using Vi heavily for about ten months.
    - graywh 18y ago
      I call ad hominem on the age attacks. Comparing how emacs and vi/vim are different from other editors and like saying no one will ever use lisp because of all the parentheses.
      - gnaritas 18y ago
        Hate to tell you, but virtually no one does use Lisp. It's not ad hominem, it's just the facts; I'm not saying it's right or that's how things should be judged, just that they are.
      - gnaritas 18y ago
        Hate to tell you, but virtually no one does use Lisp. It's not ad hominem, it's just the facts; I'm not saying it's right or that's how things should be judged, just that they are.
est 18y ago
because marketing (more than technology) matters
- vesan 18y ago
  Textmate has huge marketing... NOT
nailer 18y ago
But vi (and likely emacs as well) has terrible discoverability. I can modify my gedit or eTextEditor syntax highlighting easily. You could spend an hour learning how to do the same in vi. Hell, to even find 'colorscheme' you'd have to wonder round vimtutor for ages.
- aaronblohowiak 18y ago
  You're right. But it isn't hard to learn with a deliberate effort to do so. You have to treat it like learning a new programming language. When you do that, and read a book on it ( i like http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Editor-Nutshell-Linda-Lamb/dp/0937175676 http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Editor-Nutshell-Linda-Lamb/dp... ) then it comes together and you start to really feel like a maestro.
- jherdman 18y ago
  This was my biggest beef with Vim when I started using it. gVim just doesn't have the ease of configurability as Textmate either. Syntax definitions and highlighting in Textmate is also easier. Aside from that, I'm happy in Vim-land.
lallysingh 18y ago
As a follower of Emacs (I'm having a golden GNU built as an idol for the office), I have to say a good part of the problem is knowing where to go for docs. There's still a good bit of oral history to these editors, even if a lot of that is available online. The last emacs book was published quite some time ago, and no matter how much of it is still valid, it's just not up to par with providing people with the same level of familiarity and desired features as one of the new ones. At work, we're all using gvim or emacs, but most are aching for eclipse or visual studio. I try to mention ctags to them and they just stare at me blankly. I suspect the field has started to move rather quickly in the UI and lingual diversity fronts, and it's time editors need to diversify as well. Still, lisp (or the bastard stepchild, emacs lisp) is a very good language for an editor. It's a shame it's the only place I use it.
- xal 18y ago
  No the problem is needing docs. Emacs is software out of a different age of computing where it was not considered a dick move to make people read documentation for changing the color scheme. These times are over but people who got used to it or have acquired mastery of the editor obviously do not feel the pain in that. I used emacs for 10 years and know lisp quite well but I'm a textmate user now. There are a lot of us.

by fendale 18y ago

peregrine 18y ago

Not everyone is a huge fan of re-learning how to type. Cause that's really how your doing it, with all the chording and such. Some of us are just used to typing in a box and hitting file->save to save. People create new editors cause there is a need to fill.

parbo 18y ago
A standard Emacs install fulfills that requirement nicely.

eli 18y ago

The fact that you listed two be-all end-all text editors suggests that neither of them is the perfect solution for everyone...

fendale 18y ago
OK, good point. But isn't writing a text editor one of those garden path problems - a near never ending amount of work to get to just what exists already? I guess I also wonder what inspires developers to start new text editor projects too! Perhaps its just dis-satisfaction with what is there already.
- gnaritas 18y ago
  There's a reason you have to be convinced to learn emacs or vi, the user experience is horrible until after you've finished climbing a learning cliff. They work differently than just about every other text editor in the world because they're so old that they don't by default use modern hotkeys people are accustomed to. Any debate about them being better really misses the point, it's the dvorak querty argument all over. Better doesn't matter as much as familiar to new users. Textmate is immediately useful to a new user and feels like a modern editor. Emacs and vi look and feel archaic and require too much effort to feel productive in. That's my two cents anyway after many attempts to use both. Can't stand vi, can get by with emacs just don't really dig it. For quick editing in a shell I just use nano because it's usually just editing of config files.
  - erlanger 18y ago
    Actually, I hate editing any code outside of Vi nowadays. I've gotten used to 'cb', 'dat', etc. I've been using Vi heavily for about ten months.
  - graywh 18y ago
    I call ad hominem on the age attacks. Comparing how emacs and vi/vim are different from other editors and like saying no one will ever use lisp because of all the parentheses.
    - gnaritas 18y ago
      Hate to tell you, but virtually no one does use Lisp. It's not ad hominem, it's just the facts; I'm not saying it's right or that's how things should be judged, just that they are.
    - gnaritas 18y ago
      Hate to tell you, but virtually no one does use Lisp. It's not ad hominem, it's just the facts; I'm not saying it's right or that's how things should be judged, just that they are.

est 18y ago

because marketing (more than technology) matters

vesan 18y ago
Textmate has huge marketing... NOT

nailer 18y ago

But vi (and likely emacs as well) has terrible discoverability. I can modify my gedit or eTextEditor syntax highlighting easily. You could spend an hour learning how to do the same in vi. Hell, to even find 'colorscheme' you'd have to wonder round vimtutor for ages.

aaronblohowiak 18y ago
You're right. But it isn't hard to learn with a deliberate effort to do so. You have to treat it like learning a new programming language. When you do that, and read a book on it ( i like http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Editor-Nutshell-Linda-Lamb/dp/0937175676 http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Editor-Nutshell-Linda-Lamb/dp... ) then it comes together and you start to really feel like a maestro.
jherdman 18y ago
This was my biggest beef with Vim when I started using it. gVim just doesn't have the ease of configurability as Textmate either. Syntax definitions and highlighting in Textmate is also easier. Aside from that, I'm happy in Vim-land.

lallysingh 18y ago

As a follower of Emacs (I'm having a golden GNU built as an idol for the office), I have to say a good part of the problem is knowing where to go for docs. There's still a good bit of oral history to these editors, even if a lot of that is available online. The last emacs book was published quite some time ago, and no matter how much of it is still valid, it's just not up to par with providing people with the same level of familiarity and desired features as one of the new ones. At work, we're all using gvim or emacs, but most are aching for eclipse or visual studio. I try to mention ctags to them and they just stare at me blankly. I suspect the field has started to move rather quickly in the UI and lingual diversity fronts, and it's time editors need to diversify as well. Still, lisp (or the bastard stepchild, emacs lisp) is a very good language for an editor. It's a shame it's the only place I use it.

xal 18y ago
No the problem is needing docs. Emacs is software out of a different age of computing where it was not considered a dick move to make people read documentation for changing the color scheme. These times are over but people who got used to it or have acquired mastery of the editor obviously do not feel the pain in that. I used emacs for 10 years and know lisp quite well but I'm a textmate user now. There are a lot of us.