5 ms·

I sit here in awe that they are selling a Developer Edition laptop without providing a single top view of the keyboard. https://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-

I sit here in awe that they are selling a Developer Edition laptop without providing a single top view of the keyboard. https://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd?refid=xps-13-linux&baynote_bnrank=0&baynote_irrank=0&~ck=baynoteSearch&isredir=true https://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd?refid=xps... Maybe I'm being way too picky, but the layout and feel of the keyboard is, aside from the screen, the other massively important thing that you don't get to change on a laptop. I mean we are typists before we are programmers. Isn't it worth letting me see how the ins/del/home/end cluster is laid out?! ~~~ edit: It looks to be agreeable. Ctrl occupies the bottom-left and Del occupies the top right, which I've found very reasonable in the past (easy to find quickly when hopping onto a new device) The Home/End/PageUp/PageDown are loacted on the arrow keys, which actually seems pretty reasonable: http://www.cdn2.loopygadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Dell-XPS-13.jpg http://www.cdn2.loopygadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/... Note that the Thinkpad X1 does not have Ctrl in the bottom left, instead its the Fn key. On the plus side, the X1 kept Home and End keys up top, with dedicated PageUp/PageDown near the arrow keys. http://blog.laptopmag.com/wpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_G16.jpg http://blog.laptopmag.com/wpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/...

ineedtosleep 14y ago
> Note that the Thinkpad X1 does not have Ctrl in the bottom left, instead its the Fn key. On the plus side, the X1 kept Home and End keys up top, with dedicated PageUp/PageDown near the arrow keys. For the most part, Lenovo's Thinkpads have a BIOS setting that allows you to switch the Fn and Ctrl keys. This has been around for a while now and is still an option on newer Thinkpads (although, I can't confirm that this option exists in the X1).
- windsurfer 14y ago
  I can confirm this. It's also a setting in the Lenovo toolkit (in Windows) if you want on top of the BIOS setting.
- chimeracoder 14y ago
  Not just that, but on any computer running Linux, you can just use loadkeys. You can also use xmodmap, but that's not going to work outside X11 (if you tend to do much work without X)
  - throwaway2048 14y ago
    The Fn key is not sent to the OS at all, this would not be remappable via OS mechanisms.
    - rhblake 14y ago
      That depends on the laptop. On my Thinkpad X220, pressing the Fn key triggers a normal KeyPress event with keycode 151, so no problem remapping.
      - LeonidasXIV 14y ago
        On my T41 too, with the same keycode, but not on my old Samsung. Considering I almost exclusively use ThinkPads, I just left Fn where it is.
- mercurial 14y ago
  > For the most part, Lenovo's Thinkpads have a BIOS setting that allows you to switch the Fn and Ctrl keys. This has been around for a while now and is still an option on newer Thinkpads (although, I can't confirm that this option exists in the X1). I have both a Dell and a Thinkpad, and it's definitely much more convenient to have Ctl readily accessible with the left pinky than Fn, which you get on the Thinkpad.
  - rplnt 14y ago
    The Ctrl is still readily accessible with the left pinky. I've never had problem with this om my Thinkpad. It just took some time to getting used to. They keyboard was phenomenal compared to cheap asus books I've tried (both feel and horrible layout were a cause). Then I got Dell (E6400) and liked the keyboard even more. The feel was better. Only thing I missed was the light from Thinkpad. While the keyboard was backlit, I found the top light to be more convenient.
    - mercurial 14y ago
      > The Ctrl is still readily accessible with the left pinky. What I meant is that it's easier to access on a Lenovo keyboard than on a non-Lenovo keyboard, since it's closer. I have a hard time hitting Left Ctrl on the Dell keyboard than on my Lenovo keyboards.
  - bad_user 14y ago
    I also own a Thinkpad and while the Fn/Ctrl position is annoying I haven't been using the default left Ctrl key in a while anyway, simply because I map Caps-Lock as a Ctrl key. The Ctrl key is so often used by developers, especially when one uses Emacs shortcuts (not only in Emacs itself, but also in Readline-enabled shells or other software), that you can easily get RSI. Remaping Caps-Lock as a Ctrl is a necessity and once you use it you'll never want to go back to the default left Ctrl.
    - mercurial 14y ago
      I've adapted my environment to my preferences: most of the stuff I use has vim shortcuts (+ Windows key modifier for XMonad). Besides, you don't have many things you need to access in a hurry with Fn anyway (since you have proper home/end/etc. keys).
kevincrane 14y ago
Is it only me or are the half-size arrow keys a really big problem? I use the arrows to get around a lot, in basically everything but vi, making them half the size has always annoyed me (at least on whatever Chromebook I've used). Dell's Vostro V131 has my favorite keyboard I've ever used on a laptop, it's been perfect for me since whenever I got it. http://images.anandtech.com/galleries/1486/dell-vostro-v131-01a-keyboard.jpg http://images.anandtech.com/galleries/1486/dell-vostro-v131-...
- moonboots 14y ago
  I prefer the x230's keyboard [1], which extends the arrows downward into the unused palm rest area. I've used a similar keyboard as the vostro, and I found myself frequently fatfingering home instead of pageup and end instead of pagedown. [1] http://cdn.gottabemobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/thinkpad-x230-keyboard-2.jpg http://cdn.gottabemobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/thin...
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
lbraasch 14y ago
The funky Fn/Ctrl placement is a Thinkpad thing[1]. IMO, the classic thinkpad layout nailed it. Unfortunately, this has been replaced by the chicklet layout. I love the big delete button on the x220[2]. [1] http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2011/01/500x_lenovo_thinkpad_701c_butterfly_keyboard.jpg http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2011/01/500x_l... [2] http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/story/30/40/092594/thinkpad_x220_2.jpg http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/story/30/40/092594/thinkpad_x2...
- eitland 14y ago
  >The funky Fn/Ctrl placement is a Thinkpad thing Mac as well. Small Mac keyboards has this, big has ctrl in the "correct" position. On the Mac there is no setting "bios" or otherwise to remap it though.
  - masklinn 14y ago
    On the other hand, you can trivially remap CapsLock to control, and then why would you care about the bottom-left control when you've got a big one right in the (vertical) center of the left-hand side?
    - nitrogen 14y ago
      Probably because those of us who grew up with PC keyboards instead of workstation keyboards are used to pressing Ctrl with our pinky or palm. Still, Caps Lock remains an essentially useless key ripe for remapping.
      - masklinn 14y ago
        > pressing Ctrl with our palm. Probably the piece I was missing. I grew up on PC keyboards but never hit Ctrl with my palm (I can't even figure out how I'd do it). And thus never understood the love some have for a control key in the bottom-left corner (with Fn between Alt and Control): even without the Caps remap, Ctrl next to Alt (as on thinkpads and macs) means easier pinkie travel (almost solely vertical versus an awkward stretch to the bottom and side) compared to a Ctrl stuffed in the far corner.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
fcatalan 14y ago
I'm sitting here in front of an X1 loaded with Ubuntu and the experience so far isn't great. The build quality wouldn't be quite ok for a $1000 laptop and is infuriating for a $1700 one. And the screen is just ok About the linux experience: I don't mind the placement of the left ctrl key, but PrtScr sitting next to right alt is extremely annoying in Ubuntu. Battery life in Linux is quite shorter than in Windows, wake up from suspension randomly takes longer than a full boot and there's quite a lot of battery drain while suspended. And I just manually upgraded to the new 3.8 kernel to see if some new driver version there fixes the random full freezes i've been getting. So I kinda wish I had waited for the Dell. I knew it was coming but got tempted by the black sexyness of this thing.

ineedtosleep 14y ago

> Note that the Thinkpad X1 does not have Ctrl in the bottom left, instead its the Fn key. On the plus side, the X1 kept Home and End keys up top, with dedicated PageUp/PageDown near the arrow keys. For the most part, Lenovo's Thinkpads have a BIOS setting that allows you to switch the Fn and Ctrl keys. This has been around for a while now and is still an option on newer Thinkpads (although, I can't confirm that this option exists in the X1).

windsurfer 14y ago
I can confirm this. It's also a setting in the Lenovo toolkit (in Windows) if you want on top of the BIOS setting.
chimeracoder 14y ago
Not just that, but on any computer running Linux, you can just use loadkeys. You can also use xmodmap, but that's not going to work outside X11 (if you tend to do much work without X)
- throwaway2048 14y ago
  The Fn key is not sent to the OS at all, this would not be remappable via OS mechanisms.
  - rhblake 14y ago
    That depends on the laptop. On my Thinkpad X220, pressing the Fn key triggers a normal KeyPress event with keycode 151, so no problem remapping.
    - LeonidasXIV 14y ago
      On my T41 too, with the same keycode, but not on my old Samsung. Considering I almost exclusively use ThinkPads, I just left Fn where it is.
mercurial 14y ago
> For the most part, Lenovo's Thinkpads have a BIOS setting that allows you to switch the Fn and Ctrl keys. This has been around for a while now and is still an option on newer Thinkpads (although, I can't confirm that this option exists in the X1). I have both a Dell and a Thinkpad, and it's definitely much more convenient to have Ctl readily accessible with the left pinky than Fn, which you get on the Thinkpad.
- rplnt 14y ago
  The Ctrl is still readily accessible with the left pinky. I've never had problem with this om my Thinkpad. It just took some time to getting used to. They keyboard was phenomenal compared to cheap asus books I've tried (both feel and horrible layout were a cause). Then I got Dell (E6400) and liked the keyboard even more. The feel was better. Only thing I missed was the light from Thinkpad. While the keyboard was backlit, I found the top light to be more convenient.
  - mercurial 14y ago
    > The Ctrl is still readily accessible with the left pinky. What I meant is that it's easier to access on a Lenovo keyboard than on a non-Lenovo keyboard, since it's closer. I have a hard time hitting Left Ctrl on the Dell keyboard than on my Lenovo keyboards.
- bad_user 14y ago
  I also own a Thinkpad and while the Fn/Ctrl position is annoying I haven't been using the default left Ctrl key in a while anyway, simply because I map Caps-Lock as a Ctrl key. The Ctrl key is so often used by developers, especially when one uses Emacs shortcuts (not only in Emacs itself, but also in Readline-enabled shells or other software), that you can easily get RSI. Remaping Caps-Lock as a Ctrl is a necessity and once you use it you'll never want to go back to the default left Ctrl.
  - mercurial 14y ago
    I've adapted my environment to my preferences: most of the stuff I use has vim shortcuts (+ Windows key modifier for XMonad). Besides, you don't have many things you need to access in a hurry with Fn anyway (since you have proper home/end/etc. keys).

kevincrane 14y ago

Is it only me or are the half-size arrow keys a really big problem? I use the arrows to get around a lot, in basically everything but vi, making them half the size has always annoyed me (at least on whatever Chromebook I've used). Dell's Vostro V131 has my favorite keyboard I've ever used on a laptop, it's been perfect for me since whenever I got it. http://images.anandtech.com/galleries/1486/dell-vostro-v131-01a-keyboard.jpg http://images.anandtech.com/galleries/1486/dell-vostro-v131-...

moonboots 14y ago
I prefer the x230's keyboard [1], which extends the arrows downward into the unused palm rest area. I've used a similar keyboard as the vostro, and I found myself frequently fatfingering home instead of pageup and end instead of pagedown. [1] http://cdn.gottabemobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/thinkpad-x230-keyboard-2.jpg http://cdn.gottabemobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/thin...
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

lbraasch 14y ago

The funky Fn/Ctrl placement is a Thinkpad thing[1]. IMO, the classic thinkpad layout nailed it. Unfortunately, this has been replaced by the chicklet layout. I love the big delete button on the x220[2]. [1] http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2011/01/500x_lenovo_thinkpad_701c_butterfly_keyboard.jpg http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2011/01/500x_l... [2] http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/story/30/40/092594/thinkpad_x220_2.jpg http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/story/30/40/092594/thinkpad_x2...

eitland 14y ago
>The funky Fn/Ctrl placement is a Thinkpad thing Mac as well. Small Mac keyboards has this, big has ctrl in the "correct" position. On the Mac there is no setting "bios" or otherwise to remap it though.
- masklinn 14y ago
  On the other hand, you can trivially remap CapsLock to control, and then why would you care about the bottom-left control when you've got a big one right in the (vertical) center of the left-hand side?
  - nitrogen 14y ago
    Probably because those of us who grew up with PC keyboards instead of workstation keyboards are used to pressing Ctrl with our pinky or palm. Still, Caps Lock remains an essentially useless key ripe for remapping.
    - masklinn 14y ago
      > pressing Ctrl with our palm. Probably the piece I was missing. I grew up on PC keyboards but never hit Ctrl with my palm (I can't even figure out how I'd do it). And thus never understood the love some have for a control key in the bottom-left corner (with Fn between Alt and Control): even without the Caps remap, Ctrl next to Alt (as on thinkpads and macs) means easier pinkie travel (almost solely vertical versus an awkward stretch to the bottom and side) compared to a Ctrl stuffed in the far corner.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

fcatalan 14y ago

I'm sitting here in front of an X1 loaded with Ubuntu and the experience so far isn't great. The build quality wouldn't be quite ok for a $1000 laptop and is infuriating for a $1700 one. And the screen is just ok About the linux experience: I don't mind the placement of the left ctrl key, but PrtScr sitting next to right alt is extremely annoying in Ubuntu. Battery life in Linux is quite shorter than in Windows, wake up from suspension randomly takes longer than a full boot and there's quite a lot of battery drain while suspended. And I just manually upgraded to the new 3.8 kernel to see if some new driver version there fixes the random full freezes i've been getting. So I kinda wish I had waited for the Dell. I knew it was coming but got tempted by the black sexyness of this thing.