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The key facts here are: 1) Broder reached out to Tesla on multiple occasions during the trip asking for advice when oddities happened 2) He behaved in accorda

• slantyyz 14y ago
  Broder deserves to be called out on his inaccuracies. But the thing that made the story was your point #3. And it could have been completely prevented if the people who gave out the advice in #2 gave better advice. We can call Broder an idiot all we want, but it seems like there were bigger idiots on the other side of the phone. They could have erred on the side of caution and just told him to spend more time charging at every opportunity. As a result, #3 would likely not have happened, and Broder's article would have been seen as a mildly negative article, but also a forgettable one.
• babesh 14y ago
  You cannot record someone on the phone without permission so the call log is not available.
  • niggler 14y ago
    "This call may be recorded for quality and training purposes". Happens all the time in support calls.
  • biot 14y ago
    That is jurisdiction-dependent. Where I live you can record calls as long as one party of the call consents, and a company can get a blanket consent from all employees through an employment agreement. The other party need not be aware that the call is being recorded.
    • deleted 14y ago
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• SilasX 14y ago
  >Broder reached out to Tesla on multiple occasions during the trip asking for advice when oddities happened That's what struck me the most, relative to how little attention it got. How many other people would have needed to call into a car company's customer service (and that many times!) to finish a simple test drive? "Mommy, should I charge it all the way at the supercharger station?" "Mommy it only reads 32 miles, will it last twice that?" There are a hundred people more competent and deserving of such an opportunity than someone who doesn't even know the current state of vehicle logging tech.
  • niggler 14y ago
    "How many other people would have needed to call into a car company's customer service (and that many times!) to finish a simple test drive?" If you saw last night that you had a full tank of gas, and woke up this morning and saw the tank was empty, wouldn't you call the car company? If you saw any other critical fluid mysteriously drop in level, wouldn't you call the car company? I've done this multiple times with strange sounds and other things I never expect to happen. If I were in Broder's situation and saw strange things happening with the range indicator, I absolutely would be calling. Especially if it's a test vehicle -- the courts have decided that journalist drivers are responsible for the cars: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/you-break-it-you-bought-it-journalist-ordered-to-repair-2-million-porsche/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/you-break-it-you-bought-it...
  • pseut 14y ago
    Really? I had the opposite reaction. Does Tesla offer phone support to the rest of their customers like that?
  • BSousa 14y ago
    I once had a car that sometimes got the fuel stuck halfway through (even with a full or even empty tank). If I knew I topped the car one day, and the next it was showing slightly above halfway, I would presume it would be an issue with the meter. Honestly, I know next to nothing about cars, specially electric, but if I had a car that lost 30 miles overnight by doing nothing, I would call support as well. Until this controversy, I had no idea I had to keep the car plugged in at night.
• jellicle 14y ago
  > 2) He behaved in accordance with the advice he was given. And you know this how? Musk says very directly that Broder did not behave in accordance with the advice he was given. You were present for this exchange and you know what the truth is? Or you just imagine it to be so?
  • niggler 14y ago
    As I wrote (review my response): "It's a he-said-she-said right now and everyone sides with the car CEO rather than the journalist." Tesla didn't deny that Broder reached out, and still hasn't produced the call logs. If I were in Musk's situation I would publicly ask Broder if it was ok with him to reveal the call logs and then release it.
    • gus_massa 14y ago
      Broder, first article: > Tesla’s experts said that pumping in a little energy would help restore the power lost overnight as a result of the cold weather, and after an hour they cleared me to resume the trip to Milford. Musk: > The final leg of his trip was 61 miles and yet he disconnected the charge cable when the range display stated 32 miles. He did so expressly against the advice of Tesla personnel and in obvious violation of common sense. Broder , second article: > The Tesla personnel whom I consulted over the phone – Ms. Ra and Mr. Merendino – told me to leave it connected for an hour, and after that the lost range would be restored. I did not ignore their advice. In the first article, it seams that Broder calls after the final one hour charging, but in the second article the redaction is suspiciously vague. Perhaps the conversations in the calls were not recorded, but it would be interesting to know the times of the telephone calls.
      • niggler 14y ago
        I think the second article is clarifying what was meant by "after an hour they cleared me to resume the trip to Milford." For example, if the actual phrase was "You're clear to go after you charge for an hour." strictly speaking he was cleared to go (with the stipulation that he had to charge for an hour). Note that this is speculation. I am waiting to see the call logs, but I'm not going to assume that Broder made something up or maliciously misrepresented the conversation.
• enraged_camel 14y ago
  Re: 1) We actually don't know if he did. I mean, he claimed so, and also claimed the tesla rep told him it was OK to leave. But how do we know he didn't lie?
  • niggler 14y ago
    Tesla has not disputed (1), the claim that Broder reached out to Tesla during the journey (That would be the first thing I would point out if I were Musk and if Broder did not call during the journey) While musk has cast doubt on the entire storyline, there's a very simple way to resolve the doubt. And if you read what I wrote, it's sitting in the penultimate part of the post you are responding to (reproduced below): "The only way to attack the integrity of Broder is to argue that somehow he wasn't advised to do something. Guess what: there are call logs, and those should be brought out. It's a he-said-she-said right now and everyone sides with the car CEO rather than the journalist. That's all fine, but in this case Tesla has a way of definitively proving that Broder was being malicious: If the call logs clearly show that Broder wasn't acting in accordance to what he claims was Tesla's judgments, then Broder deserves all the criticism. Otherwise it is Tesla's fault." Musk was completely out of line in trying to assert something in a conversation he was not a part of. Right now the only first-hand source discussing the conversations is Broder, and I am not going to assume that he is telling the truth or lying until Tesla reveals the call logs. Assuming that musk, notably not a party to the phone conversations, is telling the truth seems foolish. Let's all hear the phone conversations and then judge.
• wpietri 14y ago
  I think the first and third are facts. Is the second one really established? Right now, I think it's just a claim.
  • niggler 14y ago
    The wording is nuanced. Supposing that his account of the phone calls is accurate, Broder's behavior demonstrates no malice (and Musk argued past the point when he said that the advice doesn't align with "common sense"). The part that is up for debate (and I mentioned this in the later paragraphs) is the content of the phone calls.
    • wpietri 14y ago
      Ok, so then it's not a fact.
• bathat 14y ago
  I'm curious why you think the calls were logged. Certainly, we've all come to expect that recorded, "For quality assurance purposes...," when calling tech support. Still, the Tesla employees named by Broder are not technical support staff. They are from the public relations department (and one unnamed engineer). I'd actually be very surprised if PR departments regularly recorded calls, if for no other reason than to give staff the option of claiming to be mis-quoted by reporters. Still, not even Broder claims that Tesla advised him to end his Supercharge early in Milford. I'm unsympathetic to claims that he received bad advice from Tesla later in his trip. As several Model S owners have demonstrated [1], it is entirely possible to drive round-trip from Milford to Groton on a single supercharge. Moreover, they demonstrated that it is possible to do so with a comfortable cabin temperature, a normal highway speed, and, perhaps most importantly, without charging the car overnight in Groton (and they, too, experienced some range loss during the night). Of course, none of this proves that Broder was malicious. It is still the case, however, that each time he had the opportunity to choose between following Tesla's advice or his own common sense, he chose the option that put him in greater danger of being stranded. Perhaps the test drive was simply a disastrous chain of honest, yet abysmal, decision-making, followed a well-written essay describing how the fault was everyone's but his. [1] http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13905-Recreating-the-NY-Times-Road-Trip-We-re-on-This-Weekend http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13905-Recreati...!
  • niggler 14y ago
    "I'm curious why you think the calls were logged." This is not Tesla's first time dealing with the media. After the Top Gear controversy, I would expect them to be more circumspect. "I'm unsympathetic to claims that he received bad advice from Tesla later in his trip" It's not his car, and if he didnt obey Tesla's advice and bricked the car he could be liable for the damages (I discussed this in more detail in a nephew post http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5240745 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5240745) "As several Model S owners have demonstrated [1], it is entirely possible to drive round-trip from Milford to Groton on a single supercharge." Just like the CNN "test" the situation was much different, and the temperature played a significant and undeniable role, so that's an apples-to-oranges comparison "Of course, none of this proves that Broder was malicious. It is still the case, however, that each time he had the opportunity to choose between following Tesla's advice or his own common sense, he chose the option that put him in greater danger of being stranded. " You are choosing clever words here. He chose to follow Tesla's advice, and you can imagine the vitriolic reaction if Broder disobeyed Tesla's advice and ran into trouble. The main reason my pitchforks aren't out is laid out in the parent reply: when you actually filter through all of the arguments, the essence of the dispute is the nature of the advice that Tesla gave Broder while he was on the road. And Tesla failed to present any evidence that Broder received different advice (other than Musk's claims, but he has so much riding on this and wasn't actually part of the conversation, so he wouldn't necessarily know what was said -- so I definitely believe there's a chance Musk is lying and there's a chance Broder is lying). As another person mentioned http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5240988 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5240988 , I wonder if other customers get the same type of phone support In general, I'm genuinely surprised by the extent to which HN treats Musk's words as if they are from god. He's a human, he has biases, and I wouldn't put it past him to improperly start a witchhunt against those who disagree with him or refuse to drink his kool-aid. Let's separate the fact that it's Elon Musk from the discussion of the facts of the trip.
• Terretta 14y ago
  > 2) He behaved in accordance with the advice he was given. I think that's not clear. In particular, in the event the NYT ombudsman calls out as bad judgment on the reporter's part, the one hour charge at Norwich, the reporter changed his story about Tesla's advice in a crucial way, but in a way that most readers didn't pick up on. Originally, he claimed Tesla told him he'd charged it enough and could unplug and go, despite it still showing insufficient range. Later, he weasel worded that they'd told him up earlier, before charging, that an hour charge "should" be enough, and so after an hour (that was really 3/4 hour) he took off. This was deliberately weaselly, both in the not really and hour, and in the taking off despite not having range back on the gauge. Many readers, even here on HN, are still under the impression that Tesla was consulted after an hour of charging and told him it was okay to unplug and go (his original article's language). Instead, after less than an hour of charging and warming the battery, he unplugged knowing the range was insufficient and without checking with Tesla.