5 ms·

An Atheist's Glimpse of God

52 points by lut4rp 14y ago

dsowers 14y ago
I enjoyed your article. Thanks. Makes me want to try meditation again. (I've attempted it a few times)
kalmar 14y ago
Tip for the impatient: click 'Start' multiple times for a shorter ten minutes.
EvilTerran 14y ago
Very interesting. Incidentally, I do like: Ninety percent of Maslow's pyramid has been taken care of for as long as I could remember, leaving me to arrogantly believe it's my responsibility to improve this world -- that resembles a feeling that often brings me angst, but I always struggle to put into words.
- sukuriant 14y ago
  Why isn't it..? There's so many ways that even little things can be improved; and everyone should do their part to help their fellow man.
- javert 14y ago
  Disclaimer: I haven't actually read Maslow's original work. Looking at Maslow's pyramid, way more than 10% of it has to do with very abstract stuff. Given what the author has written, he almost by definition hasn't achieved "self-actualization" in the sense Maslow means. He almost by definition hasn't achieved 90% of the pyramid. Only a small part of the pyramid has to do with food, shelter, clothing, and having people to socialize with.
agentultra 14y ago
So you sat on some stones under extreme physical duress. Congratulations. Your puny mammalian brain acted in a manner dysfunctional from its normal operating environment. Now you can go to parties and feel even more superior to your friends. They won't get it of course because there's no way for you to accurately explain it to them.
- SageRaven 14y ago
  Why so dismissive? Religious or feel-good benefits aside from the 100-hour regimen, the guys deserves kudos merely for sticking with the exercise to its conclusion. Even without the discomfort, sitting/standing/whatever for 10 hours a day doing nothing physically takes some dedication. I find his experience amazing on so many levels, and I am gracious for such a intimate account of that experience (I read the full-on article he references).
  - hnriot 14y ago
    * the guys deserves kudos merely for sticking with the exercise to its conclusion why? If I pierce my scrotum a hundred times should I get kudos? No of course not, just doing something uncomfortable for no reason isn't admirable. Meditation is great for some people, and a total waste of time for others. Each to their own, but let's not pat anyone on the back for it.
    - gee_totes 14y ago
      I would totally give you kudos for piercing your scrotum a hundred times. From the people I know in the body modification community, genital modification can be a very spiritual experience. Also, think of the crazy rush that you would get from the first piercing, when your body is changed forever, till the end of the hundred-piercing ritual. That would absolutely be something worth blogging about.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - SageRaven 14y ago
      There's a difference between doing something harmful to yourself repeatedly for shits and giggles, and at your own discretion, and voluntarily following something through to its conclusion when somebody else plans the exercise for you. Perhaps the subtle distinction is only in my own head, but I do believe there is one. The dude doesn't deserve a pat on the back for the meditation itself. If he had been fasting, following a running/swimming program, studying go/baduk life-and-death problems, or playing guitar exercises for 10 days, and he stuck with it to the end and documented it similarly, I feel he would still deserve kudos. Giving one's undivided attention to a new and uncomfortable activity, 10 hours a day for 10 days, is a challenge for most people. Hell, I'm lucky if I can give up coffee or power drinks for 10 straight days. The 2 or three times I completed a 24-hour fast, I felt some sense of accomplishment. And keeping up with some kind of exercise routine? Forget about it. And that's why I found his story so layered and interesting. It's not just about the meditation (which was interesting in its own right), but about his dedication, and his privilege, and his turning his mind's eye inward. Berate him (or me) if you will. You said it best: to each their own.
f1codz 14y ago
Thanks for sharing this amazing experience. I have been wanting to do this same very course myself. Even today evening I was thinking of just this. Your experience has inspired me even more. I believe i must stop thinking and just plan go at the next best available free time.
jeremyarussell 14y ago
Meditation is one of the things that most people should do, it enlightens you as to your faults, bringing them to light so that you may change yourself for the better. It's also nothing to do with making you superior to other people(if it is you have other issues that won't work themselves out until you learn some empathy.)
geon 14y ago
I like to run once a week or so. It helps me shed a lot of stress, and is supposed to be good for me. At first I hated it. But then I began bringing my iPhone and listen to music. I mostly listen to electronic dance music, but there was a specific genre that I found worked well for runnig; Trance. There is one "song" that illustrates this very well. It is 9.5 minutes of very monotonous, slowly building "umm-tss". http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yOJsjyq_GsE#t=26s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v... There is a reason for that name. I found that this music, in combination with the deep breathing in coordination with my steps sort of lets me enter a state of trance. I can empty my mind and just be. Stress over deadlines and finances - and even stress over being stressed - pretty much are gone when I get back home.
hnriot 14y ago
Self contradictory title. Once again we're mixing up chemical imbalances (however induced) with this notion of a Creator. If there really is this God thing, then do you really think they give a damn about you sitting on hot rocks? If you do, then you've really missed the point of it all. If you don't then you'll quickly realize you're just wasting your time, the most precious resource you have.
- doorhammer 14y ago
  I think the title is intentionally somewhat provocative (which might justify some distaste, depending on your personality. I didn't really mind because I had a good idea what the author was getting at from the title). That said, I didn't see anything in the post that would lead me to believe the author was espousing a belief in God or having found religion. I'd pretty much say the opposite according to these sections: My frustration with the inclusion of Buddhist beliefs such as reincarnation, kalapas, and omniscience -- we were told to ignore these beliefs if we so chose; I ignored them. I'll leave you with what attracts me most to this bizarre practice: It is ordinary. There are no gods, there are no drugs, there is no magic I also tend to think that the notion of wasting time is hugely subjective.
- Florin_Andrei 14y ago
  Not all speech is literal. I find myself making this admonition over and over again, when speaking to folks in the computer industry. Occupational hazard, I guess.
  - hnriot 14y ago
    even if you read it metaphorically, it makes the same amount of sense.
    - Florin_Andrei 14y ago
      to you.
- javert 14y ago
  > If there really is this God thing, then do you really think they give a damn about you sitting on hot rocks? If you do, then you've really missed the point of it all. If you don't then you'll quickly realize you're just wasting your time What you said is logically analogous to, "There are no cars in the parking lot, but if you think there are cars in the parking lot, you have to think they are blue." In other words, blatantly illogical. You can't reason about the properties of a false hypothetical (unless you think that it's not a false hypothetical).
btilly 14y ago
Disclaimers. I am also an atheist. I took this exact meditation course 20+ years ago and know people who have followed it for decades. I am not so enthralled. The meditation itself is fine. However the problem is in the tapes. Goenka is not just trying to teach people to meditate, he's trying to teach a particular religious philosophy. He doesn't want you to just be aware of your body, he wants you to pay attention to how things arise and pass away, and from that conclude that all attachment is bad because you will feel grief when it passes. This ties into Buddhist philosophy. To me the problem with this philosophy can be summed up by, 'Tis better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.' I was fascinated by the experience, but receiving indoctrination while I was in such a delicate state was not to my liking.
- Florin_Andrei 14y ago
  As things are right now, any meditation technique worth the effort is coming from one or another religious background. So there is going to be some infusion of dogmatic elements into it. At least some schools are honest about it and tell you to feel free and ignore the mythology and focus on the psychological work. I practice a different meditation system, and they have their own dogma attached to it. I found that whether I "believe" in it or not is irrelevant. Meditation itself is far too fascinating to get distracted with extras. Another way to look at it is that some dogmatic aspects may not represent literal truths, but are metaphors for certain psychological aspects occurring in meditation or as an effect of it. This appears to be a very appropriate interpretation for many pantheons - heck, even the Greek gods are quite obviously representations of states of consciousness and functions of the mind, and the ancient greeks were not exactly famous for their meditation techniques.
  - nimblegorilla 14y ago
    I've been doing transcendental meditation. I imagine its roots are from a "religious background", but I don't feel like there are any religious elements. There are only a few dogmatic rules such as don't eat 2 hours before/after meditating.
    - 14y ago
gee_totes 14y ago
For those of you looking for a place to go on a similar 10 day retreat, there is: Northwest Vipassana Center (PNW Region, I've heard really good things about this one from friends who have done the program) http://www.kunja.dhamma.org/ http://www.kunja.dhamma.org/ Dhamma Manda (Near SF) http://www.manda.dhamma.org/ http://www.manda.dhamma.org/ The closest one to NYC I can find is in Mass: http://www.dhara.dhamma.org/ns/ http://www.dhara.dhamma.org/ns/ For more info on locations near you: http://courses.dhamma.org/en/maps/001 http://courses.dhamma.org/en/maps/001
vlokshin 14y ago
I hate to be "that guy", but clicking your timer more than once seems to be cutting the intervals down each time (ex: click it 10 times, and it goes crazy fast). I only say this because I love that you actually went ahead and embedded a timer in your post -- knowing that the process of reading and absorbing the content was just as important, if not more important, than the content itself. Regardless, great post.
jdietrich 14y ago
Sensory deprivation is known to cause hallucinations, often within a matter of minutes. People are primed to believe that sensory deprivation in the form of meditation provides profound insights, so they do. If you force a prisoner to sit still for several hours in a silent room as punishment, they perceive it to be a dreadful torture. It's mystical nonsense. "I did a thing that made me feel better" is a perfectly legitimate statement. "I did a thing and believe it to be deeply profound and meaningful in ways I cannot articulate" really isn't the sort of thing we usually countenance on HN, because it's a line of thinking that we recognise to be dangerous. For various cultural reasons, mainly ignorance, rationalists are unusually tolerant of Buddhist nonsense, often believing it to be essentially benign. If you know anything of the history of south-east Asia, you will know how foolish that error is. I rather doubt that a post extolling the virtues of Islamic or Christian monasticism with such breathless naivete would have garnered so many upvotes.
lotsofcows 14y ago
Basic brain washing routine. You want a religion. Just pick one. Stop trying to convince yourself you're rational. You're a human being: you're not rational. Irritating post. Why the hell did I read this?

52 points by lut4rp 14y ago

dsowers 14y ago

I enjoyed your article. Thanks. Makes me want to try meditation again. (I've attempted it a few times)

kalmar 14y ago

Tip for the impatient: click 'Start' multiple times for a shorter ten minutes.

EvilTerran 14y ago

Very interesting. Incidentally, I do like: Ninety percent of Maslow's pyramid has been taken care of for as long as I could remember, leaving me to arrogantly believe it's my responsibility to improve this world -- that resembles a feeling that often brings me angst, but I always struggle to put into words.

sukuriant 14y ago
Why isn't it..? There's so many ways that even little things can be improved; and everyone should do their part to help their fellow man.
javert 14y ago
Disclaimer: I haven't actually read Maslow's original work. Looking at Maslow's pyramid, way more than 10% of it has to do with very abstract stuff. Given what the author has written, he almost by definition hasn't achieved "self-actualization" in the sense Maslow means. He almost by definition hasn't achieved 90% of the pyramid. Only a small part of the pyramid has to do with food, shelter, clothing, and having people to socialize with.

agentultra 14y ago

So you sat on some stones under extreme physical duress. Congratulations. Your puny mammalian brain acted in a manner dysfunctional from its normal operating environment. Now you can go to parties and feel even more superior to your friends. They won't get it of course because there's no way for you to accurately explain it to them.

SageRaven 14y ago
Why so dismissive? Religious or feel-good benefits aside from the 100-hour regimen, the guys deserves kudos merely for sticking with the exercise to its conclusion. Even without the discomfort, sitting/standing/whatever for 10 hours a day doing nothing physically takes some dedication. I find his experience amazing on so many levels, and I am gracious for such a intimate account of that experience (I read the full-on article he references).
- hnriot 14y ago
  * the guys deserves kudos merely for sticking with the exercise to its conclusion why? If I pierce my scrotum a hundred times should I get kudos? No of course not, just doing something uncomfortable for no reason isn't admirable. Meditation is great for some people, and a total waste of time for others. Each to their own, but let's not pat anyone on the back for it.
  - gee_totes 14y ago
    I would totally give you kudos for piercing your scrotum a hundred times. From the people I know in the body modification community, genital modification can be a very spiritual experience. Also, think of the crazy rush that you would get from the first piercing, when your body is changed forever, till the end of the hundred-piercing ritual. That would absolutely be something worth blogging about.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - SageRaven 14y ago
    There's a difference between doing something harmful to yourself repeatedly for shits and giggles, and at your own discretion, and voluntarily following something through to its conclusion when somebody else plans the exercise for you. Perhaps the subtle distinction is only in my own head, but I do believe there is one. The dude doesn't deserve a pat on the back for the meditation itself. If he had been fasting, following a running/swimming program, studying go/baduk life-and-death problems, or playing guitar exercises for 10 days, and he stuck with it to the end and documented it similarly, I feel he would still deserve kudos. Giving one's undivided attention to a new and uncomfortable activity, 10 hours a day for 10 days, is a challenge for most people. Hell, I'm lucky if I can give up coffee or power drinks for 10 straight days. The 2 or three times I completed a 24-hour fast, I felt some sense of accomplishment. And keeping up with some kind of exercise routine? Forget about it. And that's why I found his story so layered and interesting. It's not just about the meditation (which was interesting in its own right), but about his dedication, and his privilege, and his turning his mind's eye inward. Berate him (or me) if you will. You said it best: to each their own.

f1codz 14y ago

Thanks for sharing this amazing experience. I have been wanting to do this same very course myself. Even today evening I was thinking of just this. Your experience has inspired me even more. I believe i must stop thinking and just plan go at the next best available free time.

jeremyarussell 14y ago

Meditation is one of the things that most people should do, it enlightens you as to your faults, bringing them to light so that you may change yourself for the better. It's also nothing to do with making you superior to other people(if it is you have other issues that won't work themselves out until you learn some empathy.)

geon 14y ago

I like to run once a week or so. It helps me shed a lot of stress, and is supposed to be good for me. At first I hated it. But then I began bringing my iPhone and listen to music. I mostly listen to electronic dance music, but there was a specific genre that I found worked well for runnig; Trance. There is one "song" that illustrates this very well. It is 9.5 minutes of very monotonous, slowly building "umm-tss". http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yOJsjyq_GsE#t=26s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v... There is a reason for that name. I found that this music, in combination with the deep breathing in coordination with my steps sort of lets me enter a state of trance. I can empty my mind and just be. Stress over deadlines and finances - and even stress over being stressed - pretty much are gone when I get back home.

hnriot 14y ago

Self contradictory title. Once again we're mixing up chemical imbalances (however induced) with this notion of a Creator. If there really is this God thing, then do you really think they give a damn about you sitting on hot rocks? If you do, then you've really missed the point of it all. If you don't then you'll quickly realize you're just wasting your time, the most precious resource you have.

doorhammer 14y ago
I think the title is intentionally somewhat provocative (which might justify some distaste, depending on your personality. I didn't really mind because I had a good idea what the author was getting at from the title). That said, I didn't see anything in the post that would lead me to believe the author was espousing a belief in God or having found religion. I'd pretty much say the opposite according to these sections: My frustration with the inclusion of Buddhist beliefs such as reincarnation, kalapas, and omniscience -- we were told to ignore these beliefs if we so chose; I ignored them. I'll leave you with what attracts me most to this bizarre practice: It is ordinary. There are no gods, there are no drugs, there is no magic I also tend to think that the notion of wasting time is hugely subjective.
Florin_Andrei 14y ago
Not all speech is literal. I find myself making this admonition over and over again, when speaking to folks in the computer industry. Occupational hazard, I guess.
- hnriot 14y ago
  even if you read it metaphorically, it makes the same amount of sense.
  - Florin_Andrei 14y ago
    to you.
javert 14y ago
> If there really is this God thing, then do you really think they give a damn about you sitting on hot rocks? If you do, then you've really missed the point of it all. If you don't then you'll quickly realize you're just wasting your time What you said is logically analogous to, "There are no cars in the parking lot, but if you think there are cars in the parking lot, you have to think they are blue." In other words, blatantly illogical. You can't reason about the properties of a false hypothetical (unless you think that it's not a false hypothetical).

btilly 14y ago

Disclaimers. I am also an atheist. I took this exact meditation course 20+ years ago and know people who have followed it for decades. I am not so enthralled. The meditation itself is fine. However the problem is in the tapes. Goenka is not just trying to teach people to meditate, he's trying to teach a particular religious philosophy. He doesn't want you to just be aware of your body, he wants you to pay attention to how things arise and pass away, and from that conclude that all attachment is bad because you will feel grief when it passes. This ties into Buddhist philosophy. To me the problem with this philosophy can be summed up by, 'Tis better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.' I was fascinated by the experience, but receiving indoctrination while I was in such a delicate state was not to my liking.

Florin_Andrei 14y ago
As things are right now, any meditation technique worth the effort is coming from one or another religious background. So there is going to be some infusion of dogmatic elements into it. At least some schools are honest about it and tell you to feel free and ignore the mythology and focus on the psychological work. I practice a different meditation system, and they have their own dogma attached to it. I found that whether I "believe" in it or not is irrelevant. Meditation itself is far too fascinating to get distracted with extras. Another way to look at it is that some dogmatic aspects may not represent literal truths, but are metaphors for certain psychological aspects occurring in meditation or as an effect of it. This appears to be a very appropriate interpretation for many pantheons - heck, even the Greek gods are quite obviously representations of states of consciousness and functions of the mind, and the ancient greeks were not exactly famous for their meditation techniques.
- nimblegorilla 14y ago
  I've been doing transcendental meditation. I imagine its roots are from a "religious background", but I don't feel like there are any religious elements. There are only a few dogmatic rules such as don't eat 2 hours before/after meditating.
  - 14y ago

gee_totes 14y ago

For those of you looking for a place to go on a similar 10 day retreat, there is: Northwest Vipassana Center (PNW Region, I've heard really good things about this one from friends who have done the program) http://www.kunja.dhamma.org/ http://www.kunja.dhamma.org/ Dhamma Manda (Near SF) http://www.manda.dhamma.org/ http://www.manda.dhamma.org/ The closest one to NYC I can find is in Mass: http://www.dhara.dhamma.org/ns/ http://www.dhara.dhamma.org/ns/ For more info on locations near you: http://courses.dhamma.org/en/maps/001 http://courses.dhamma.org/en/maps/001

vlokshin 14y ago

I hate to be "that guy", but clicking your timer more than once seems to be cutting the intervals down each time (ex: click it 10 times, and it goes crazy fast). I only say this because I love that you actually went ahead and embedded a timer in your post -- knowing that the process of reading and absorbing the content was just as important, if not more important, than the content itself. Regardless, great post.

jdietrich 14y ago

Sensory deprivation is known to cause hallucinations, often within a matter of minutes. People are primed to believe that sensory deprivation in the form of meditation provides profound insights, so they do. If you force a prisoner to sit still for several hours in a silent room as punishment, they perceive it to be a dreadful torture. It's mystical nonsense. "I did a thing that made me feel better" is a perfectly legitimate statement. "I did a thing and believe it to be deeply profound and meaningful in ways I cannot articulate" really isn't the sort of thing we usually countenance on HN, because it's a line of thinking that we recognise to be dangerous. For various cultural reasons, mainly ignorance, rationalists are unusually tolerant of Buddhist nonsense, often believing it to be essentially benign. If you know anything of the history of south-east Asia, you will know how foolish that error is. I rather doubt that a post extolling the virtues of Islamic or Christian monasticism with such breathless naivete would have garnered so many upvotes.

lotsofcows 14y ago

Basic brain washing routine. You want a religion. Just pick one. Stop trying to convince yourself you're rational. You're a human being: you're not rational. Irritating post. Why the hell did I read this?