4 ms·

I'm curious to know what aspects of Khan's recruiting/admission policies resulted in such a large number of female admissions. It would be nice if the authors'

I'm curious to know what aspects of Khan's recruiting/admission policies resulted in such a large number of female admissions. It would be nice if the authors' response included some description of their policies. As the person who stands at the end of our hiring process’s pipeline, I find “Mark“‘s idea that we’re sacrificing quality to fill some quota merely very insulting. If I were one of the women who has successfully navigated our brutal interview process, I’d be furious. This is said as if there is no basis for "Mark's" belief. Affirmative action programs are notorious for establishing two-tier admissions policies for the sole purpose of fostering "diversity". While official quotas are illegal, it's well known that minority students are admitted to prestigious universities with far lower SAT and GPA's that their white/Asian counterparts. What's to make us think that's not what's at work here? Especially given that increasing female enrollment was a high priority given that there are so many "big smiles" when it was achieved. Again, some transparency would be nice. Edited for spelling and grammar

gnosis 14y ago
"it's well known that minority students are admitted to prestigious universities with far lower SAT and GPA's that their white/Asian counterparts" SATs have been criticised for having inherent socioeconomic bias. The validity of both SATs and GPAs, and their appropriateness as gauges of student intelligence, future performance, learning, and appropriateness for use in admissions have all been questioned.
- LockeWatts 14y ago
  Do you have a better criterion with which to measure?
  - mjmahone17 14y ago
    How about proven ability to overcome adversity?
    - LockeWatts 14y ago
      Well A) How do you plan on quantitatively measuring that so that all candidates are equally considered? and B) What does that have to do with writing software?
    - mjmahone17 14y ago
      LockeWatts: What does the SAT have to do with writing software? I'd say being able to overcome adversity, i.e. being able to do more with what you've been dealt than others believe you can, is usually going to be a stronger indicator of future performance than is a test score. Furthermore, I'd argue in software development especially, you need to be able to overcome people's initial compunctions, and you need to be resourceful and able to figure out how to succeed when it seems like the chips are stacked against you. As to how you test for that: why not ask? The SAT and ACT both have an essay portion. Why not ask candidates to write an essay, or tell you in person, about how they've overcome adversity? Also, how is asking interviewees how to solve a programming problem more quantitative than asking them how they've dealt with adversity?
      - LockeWatts 14y ago
        "I'd say being able to overcome adversity, i.e. being able to do more with what you've been dealt than others believe you can, is usually going to be a stronger indicator of future performance than is a test score." Well you can say that, but I haven't seen any studies that would indicate as such. However, multiple studies have shown that logical reasoning, critical thinking, and mathematical aptitude all lead to better programmers. These are things the SAT attempts to select for. "why not ask? The SAT and ACT both have an essay portion." A much discussed and argued about section, precisely due to it's inability to be quantitatively and statistically analyzed. Admissions officers at multiple schools indicated they gave the essay portion little to no consideration for precisely this reason. "Why not ask candidates to write an essay, or tell you in person, about how they've overcome adversity?" To colleges or jobs? For jobs, simply because it's a less efficient method. "Also, how is asking interviewees how to solve a programming problem more quantitative than asking them how they've dealt with adversity?" You can measure things about this. Candidate A took N minutes to solve the problem ideally, Candidate B took N + 5 minutes. All other things being equal, candidate A is superior to candidate B. Furthermore, you can look at things such as programming fundamentals that are easily quantifiable, such as being able to correctly create a log(n) versus n search algorithm, or being able to correctly indicate why log(n) might be superior to n. Finally, 'adversity' hasn't even been defined in this conversation, so I'm arguing against an ethereal concept. Please define it for me.
kamens 14y ago
Transparency about our interviewing process: http://bjk5.com/post/3340326040/in-any-language-you-want-khan-academy-interviews http://bjk5.com/post/3340326040/in-any-language-you-want-kha... (which comes from the hiring cultures at Fog Creek and Google, see http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing...). Transparency about all past internships, their expectation and accomplishments: http://bjk5.com/post/36067210182/khan-academy-internship-summer-12 http://bjk5.com/post/36067210182/khan-academy-internship-sum... http://bjk5.com/post/8826207372/khan-academy-internship-summer-11 http://bjk5.com/post/8826207372/khan-academy-internship-summ... http://bjk5.com/post/15500332273/khan-academy-internship-fall-11 http://bjk5.com/post/15500332273/khan-academy-internship-fal... Transparency from previous interns about their work, which I believe speaks for itself: http://david-hu.com/2011/11/02/how-khan-academy-is-using-machine-learning-to-assess-student-mastery.html http://david-hu.com/2011/11/02/how-khan-academy-is-using-mac... http://dylanv.org/2012/09/14/the-khan-academy-internship-experience/ http://dylanv.org/2012/09/14/the-khan-academy-internship-exp... http://jamie-wong.com/2012/08/22/what-i-did-at-khan-academy/ http://jamie-wong.com/2012/08/22/what-i-did-at-khan-academy/ If any piece of evidence from the above points to an organization that values quotas over excellence in interns and the work expected of them, well please raise the alarm. We need to get past our default response being a knee jerk assumption of discrimination.
- cantastoria 14y ago
  Fogcreek and Google's interview process both seem to yield a far larger number of male employees than females yes? David, Dylan and Jamie are all men yes? If any piece of evidence from the above points to an organization that values quotas over excellence in interns and the work expected of them, well please raise the alarm. No one is accusing you of using quotas and no is saying you do not value excellence in interns. What's being asked is why was there such a steep increase in the number of female interns accepted? Were there more female applicants? Were interview questions changed? How did this result come about?
  - kamens 14y ago
    And what I'm asking you is: can you come up with any possible explanations for an increase in women devs over time that should be celebrated, especially at an organization that values equal education for everyone, without first wondering if our interview questions have changed?
brown9-2 14y ago
There seems to be an assumption here that Khan Academy made some change that resulted in this outcome, instead of it being a natural occurence.

gnosis 14y ago

"it's well known that minority students are admitted to prestigious universities with far lower SAT and GPA's that their white/Asian counterparts" SATs have been criticised for having inherent socioeconomic bias. The validity of both SATs and GPAs, and their appropriateness as gauges of student intelligence, future performance, learning, and appropriateness for use in admissions have all been questioned.

LockeWatts 14y ago
Do you have a better criterion with which to measure?
- mjmahone17 14y ago
  How about proven ability to overcome adversity?
  - LockeWatts 14y ago
    Well A) How do you plan on quantitatively measuring that so that all candidates are equally considered? and B) What does that have to do with writing software?
  - mjmahone17 14y ago
    LockeWatts: What does the SAT have to do with writing software? I'd say being able to overcome adversity, i.e. being able to do more with what you've been dealt than others believe you can, is usually going to be a stronger indicator of future performance than is a test score. Furthermore, I'd argue in software development especially, you need to be able to overcome people's initial compunctions, and you need to be resourceful and able to figure out how to succeed when it seems like the chips are stacked against you. As to how you test for that: why not ask? The SAT and ACT both have an essay portion. Why not ask candidates to write an essay, or tell you in person, about how they've overcome adversity? Also, how is asking interviewees how to solve a programming problem more quantitative than asking them how they've dealt with adversity?
    - LockeWatts 14y ago
      "I'd say being able to overcome adversity, i.e. being able to do more with what you've been dealt than others believe you can, is usually going to be a stronger indicator of future performance than is a test score." Well you can say that, but I haven't seen any studies that would indicate as such. However, multiple studies have shown that logical reasoning, critical thinking, and mathematical aptitude all lead to better programmers. These are things the SAT attempts to select for. "why not ask? The SAT and ACT both have an essay portion." A much discussed and argued about section, precisely due to it's inability to be quantitatively and statistically analyzed. Admissions officers at multiple schools indicated they gave the essay portion little to no consideration for precisely this reason. "Why not ask candidates to write an essay, or tell you in person, about how they've overcome adversity?" To colleges or jobs? For jobs, simply because it's a less efficient method. "Also, how is asking interviewees how to solve a programming problem more quantitative than asking them how they've dealt with adversity?" You can measure things about this. Candidate A took N minutes to solve the problem ideally, Candidate B took N + 5 minutes. All other things being equal, candidate A is superior to candidate B. Furthermore, you can look at things such as programming fundamentals that are easily quantifiable, such as being able to correctly create a log(n) versus n search algorithm, or being able to correctly indicate why log(n) might be superior to n. Finally, 'adversity' hasn't even been defined in this conversation, so I'm arguing against an ethereal concept. Please define it for me.

kamens 14y ago

Transparency about our interviewing process: http://bjk5.com/post/3340326040/in-any-language-you-want-khan-academy-interviews http://bjk5.com/post/3340326040/in-any-language-you-want-kha... (which comes from the hiring cultures at Fog Creek and Google, see http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing...). Transparency about all past internships, their expectation and accomplishments: http://bjk5.com/post/36067210182/khan-academy-internship-summer-12 http://bjk5.com/post/36067210182/khan-academy-internship-sum... http://bjk5.com/post/8826207372/khan-academy-internship-summer-11 http://bjk5.com/post/8826207372/khan-academy-internship-summ... http://bjk5.com/post/15500332273/khan-academy-internship-fall-11 http://bjk5.com/post/15500332273/khan-academy-internship-fal... Transparency from previous interns about their work, which I believe speaks for itself: http://david-hu.com/2011/11/02/how-khan-academy-is-using-machine-learning-to-assess-student-mastery.html http://david-hu.com/2011/11/02/how-khan-academy-is-using-mac... http://dylanv.org/2012/09/14/the-khan-academy-internship-experience/ http://dylanv.org/2012/09/14/the-khan-academy-internship-exp... http://jamie-wong.com/2012/08/22/what-i-did-at-khan-academy/ http://jamie-wong.com/2012/08/22/what-i-did-at-khan-academy/ If any piece of evidence from the above points to an organization that values quotas over excellence in interns and the work expected of them, well please raise the alarm. We need to get past our default response being a knee jerk assumption of discrimination.

cantastoria 14y ago
Fogcreek and Google's interview process both seem to yield a far larger number of male employees than females yes? David, Dylan and Jamie are all men yes? If any piece of evidence from the above points to an organization that values quotas over excellence in interns and the work expected of them, well please raise the alarm. No one is accusing you of using quotas and no is saying you do not value excellence in interns. What's being asked is why was there such a steep increase in the number of female interns accepted? Were there more female applicants? Were interview questions changed? How did this result come about?
- kamens 14y ago
  And what I'm asking you is: can you come up with any possible explanations for an increase in women devs over time that should be celebrated, especially at an organization that values equal education for everyone, without first wondering if our interview questions have changed?

brown9-2 14y ago

There seems to be an assumption here that Khan Academy made some change that resulted in this outcome, instead of it being a natural occurence.