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This is certainly an interesting study, but I can't help being seriously disappointed by this part: Sometimes when I hear people railing against porn, declarin

This is certainly an interesting study, but I can't help being seriously disappointed by this part: Sometimes when I hear people railing against porn, declaring it as the downfall of society, a poison infecting masculine minds and demeaning female ones, I wonder what kind of porn they’re talking about. [...] So when I hear somebody claim that porn is ‘degrading’, I can’t help but ask: which porn? If you think most porn isn't degrading, then you need to look a bit closer and think a little harder. I've already posted my views [1], but I'll copy & paste the relevant part here: First of all, there's very little porn out there where the woman truly enjoys the experience. It's not always glaringly obvious (although we'll get back to that in the next point), but if you actually stop and look, you'll see the discomfort and/or indifference very often. Second, a lot of porn out there focuses on and glorifies the woman's suffering, pain and degradation. Seriously, you only have to read the word "painal" once to realize that. However, if that's not enough, you might also look for the occurrences of "choke", "gag", "destroy", "slut", etc. Third, even the porn that doesn't focus on pain teaches wrong stuff. One might get the idea that the only thing a man need do to make a woman enjoy sex is to pound her fast and hard. On top of that comes the whole issue of hygiene: the way anal is portrayed means that if you try it at home, your female partner will likely end up with an infection. Fourth, it creates unrealistic expectations. Let's just say that gag reflex is not as easy to suppress as the porn makes you believe and that anal sex is not a matter of just sliding in any time you want. TL;DR: No, it's not just about whether the sex if fun or boring. Finally, I find the claim that "female porn stars dictate the type of sex they have by listing in their modelling profiles the acts they’re willing to perform on camera" to be disingenuous. It propagates the idea that everything is okay and whatever isn't okay is "her fault". [1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4499803 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4499803 EDIT: Since I'm obviously not trolling, I was wondering whether anyone could help explain the drive-by downvoting. I don't expect everyone to agree, but it might be nicer to have a discussion than to suppress it ;)

vacri 14y ago
One might get the idea that the only thing a man need do to make a woman enjoy sex is to pound her fast and hard. While I'm not about to argue that porn is a particularly accurate depiction of sex, I always find it interesting that these kinds of criticisms of it always seem to ignore the frequent cunnilingus in it. One of the things I like about this article is that it's about data mining rather than selection bias. Not to say that the article isn't biased, but that it's less biased.
- CodeMage 14y ago
  I can't speak for other people, but I can offer you insight into how I think about these things. It's not that I ignore the frequent cunnilingus in porn, it's that I don't see the need to mention it because I don't look at porn as an equation, as in "Well, he's going from ungentle and obviously painful anal directly to rough fellatio, but that's perfectly okay because of the long cunnilingus at the beginning." I'm not trying to portray all porn as bad and degrading, nor am I denying that there is good (and sometimes even realistic) sex in it. Nor do I claim that it all should be realistic. What concerns me and motivates me to comment on porn are the following things: 1) the prevalence of casual degradation of women in porn. 2) what people learn to expect based on porn. 3) how many people seem to be either unaware of some (or all) of the above or aware but believe it's normal and acceptable.
  - tsotha 14y ago
    Do you have any reason to believe people are actually looking to porn as some sort of instruction manual? Rates of rape (at least in the US) have fallen dramatically over the last two decades, which isn't something you'd expect if men see porn as an information resource.
    - vacri 14y ago
      People do tend to imitate what they see. Certainly it's not set in stone and there are always counterexamples, but overall, the trend is to mimic observed behaviour - hence the idea of things like 'leading by example'. That being said, there's a lot of different types of porn. Saying "I watch porn" is like saying "I read fiction". It certainly tells us a bit about you, but isn't particularly definitive - do you read lightweight trash like Dan Brown, do you prefer mysteries, bodice-rippers, fantasies, war novels, or the complexities of writers like Eco? Perhaps a little bit of everything depending on the mood?
    - Surio 14y ago
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dine...
marknutter 14y ago
The real truth is, there's a wide range of porn catering to a wide array of interests and you're narrowly focusing in on a very small slice of that array.
jules 14y ago
> Second, a lot of porn out there focuses on and glorifies the woman's suffering, pain and degradation. Seriously, you only have to read the word "painal" once to realize that. However, if that's not enough, you might also look for the occurrences of "choke", "gag", "destroy", "slut", etc. I might be mistaken here, but as far as I can tell this kind of porn is the minority. Also, isn't this 'degrading porn' meant for people who identify with the person being degraded? Whether you like it or not, the power dynamic is an integral part of human sexuality. That you see this in porn is just an effect of the phenomenon, not the cause. It's completely natural and benign. People saying that this is "wrong" and taboo are doing far more harm than good to the women and men (!) who enjoy being on that side of the power dynamic. Secondly, porn isn't meant to be realistic. Complaining about that is just like the people complaining about violence in video games and movies. People are perfectly capable of distinguishing reality from fiction. The reason people enjoy porn is exactly because it is not realistic -- it satisfies a fantasy, whether that is sex with a person who is far out of your league, or rough sex, or otherwise. The way to go here is to improve sex education, not to blame porn for not being sex education.
- jseliger 14y ago
  >I might be mistaken here, but as far as I can tell this kind of porn is the minority. Also, isn't this 'degrading porn' meant for people who identify with the person being degraded? I've dated women (note the plural) who were into this sort of porn. I'm not a random sample, obviously, but take a look at books like A Billion Wicked Thoughts and The Evolutionary Biology of Human Female Sexuality, or Meredith Chivers' work: bdsm-style desires appear to be more common than is commonly depicted in the media.
  - jules 14y ago
    Yes, it is far more common than people think and admit, and it really shouldn't be a taboo (like it is for women, but perhaps even more so for men). However, I do think that if you look at all the porn combined, this is a minority.
  - fluidcruft 14y ago
    I'm skeptical of your claim which implies that this type of porn is predominantly marketed to and consumed by women.
jiggy2011 14y ago
This seems to make the assumption that there is a right and wrong way to have sex and that there is a definitive list of things that women do and do not enjoy. Of course it stands to reason that porn marketed to men will put more focus on the parts that men are more likely to enjoy and the marketing will also reflect this. So a scene showing fairly vanilla sex will be labelled "slut gets destroyed by huge cock" or something. To be honest I would suspect that women in porn who truly hate the experience wouldn't last too long. It's more likely that they simply find it boring after a while than outright unpleasant. In other words doing anal to them would be like debugging to us.
- saucetenuto 14y ago
  So if you're marketing porn to men, it's better to write "slut gets destroyed by huge cock" than e.g. "man has great sex"? I think you're right, but it's pretty disturbing, hearing it put that way.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    I think most people would understand that "destroy" does not literally mean destroy. Usually men have the dominant role during sex whilst women prefer to be submissive (though obviously not always the case). Using hyperbolic language is a safe and effective way to demonstrate dominance.
    - droidist2 14y ago
      True. People sensationalize to get more views. It's like how people title YouTube videos things like "Hillary Clinton gets smacked down by Obama in debate" when it's just a clip of a routine rebuttal by Obama.
    - groby_b 14y ago
      What a load of BS. No, women do not "prefer to be submissive", except in some misguided guys' fantasy lives. And it really doesn't matter that destroy isn't meant literally - it's still used as a term intent to degrade and humiliate. It's about male power fantasies.
henrikschroder 14y ago
> First of all, there's very little porn out there where the woman truly enjoys the experience. There's a lot of porn out there that has no women at all in it. I agree with you that there is a lot of bad porn, and that there are a lot of bad things prevalent in porn, but that specific point of the author stands pretty strong. You have to preface the discussion by asking "which porn?". In your comment you've already narrowed your definition of "porn" into a specific segment.
sergiotapia 14y ago
Downvoted you because of this gem: >Second, a lot of porn out there focuses on and glorifies the woman's suffering, pain and degradation. Seriously, you only have to read the word "painal" once to realize that. However, if that's not enough, you might also look for the occurrences of "choke", "gag", "destroy", "slut", etc. --- You're searching for that specific type of porn - of course it's going to be degrading. Your whole argument falls flat on it's face I'm afraid.
- fluidcruft 14y ago
  I think the point is the relative proportion of available/consumed porn that falls into these categories. Anecdotally, I agree with CodeMage that this sort of porn seems to be the predominant form (at least within the commercial variety of porn advertised on the internet). Perhaps what's needed is some sort of measurement of the different classifications. I really think you should address the point of proportion of this type of porn consumed, rather than the methods that can be used to identify it.
- CodeMage 14y ago
  Why on earth would you draw the conclusion that I came up with that because I search for that kind of porn? Let me put it this way: if you go to a store looking for chocolate and there's a lot of products with hazelnuts and you remark on that, would you expect anyone to jump at you and say "That's because you were looking for chocolate with hazelnuts"?
TDL 14y ago
'Finally, I find the claim that "female porn stars dictate the type of sex they have by listing in their modelling profiles the acts they’re willing to perform on camera" to be disingenuous. It propagates the idea that everything is okay and whatever isn't okay is "her fault".' I honestly don't understand how you come the conclusion that women controlling their working conditions ends up propagating victim blaming in sexual assaults. Hopefully you can clarify.
tomjen3 14y ago
>Second, a lot of porn out there focuses on and glorifies the woman's suffering, pain and degradation. Seriously, you only have to read the word "painal" once to realize that. However, if that's not enough, you might also look for the occurrences of "choke", "gag", "destroy", "slut", etc. And an entire subgroup which focus on the same with the man -- but most people don't look that far, because they just want to look down on porn. It is religious bullshit, repackaged as concern for women(TM).
- sigzero 14y ago
  Religion has nothing to do with it. Porn is degrading.
  - tsotha 14y ago
    "Degrading" is one of those words that seems to mean something but when you get down to brass tacks it's so subjective it really doesn't. If the performer is willing to do something for the money the producer is offering and have the act shown to the world clearly she doesn't share your value system. If her decision offends you then don't watch porn.
notgrace 14y ago
I'm female and I have my toe in that industry. I am not in the skin trade, but I am in a position where I have a bit of exposure to it. 1) Yes, most porn focuses on the male's pleasure, which is a common complaint. That's why James Deen makes money: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2011/11/17/porn_that_women_like_why_does_it_make_men_so_uncomfortable_.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2011/11/17/porn_that_wo... 2) Yes. Some women are into that. I feel like you are unnecessarily close-minded about the idea that women might like a range of experiences. I also agree with other commenters on their ideas that naming porn conventions do not actually indicate suffering, pain, and degradation. 3) True. Porn is not meant as educational material; be safe. 4) It does create unrealistic expectations, but almost nobody expects porn to be like real life. Female porn stars do get to choose what kind of sex they have. I hate victim blame just as much as the next woman, but saying that porn stars can choose what to do is not victim blame. Porn stars live in a world where they get paid for what they decide to do. The skin industry does have some people who are not there by choice but necessity...but the vast majority are there because they chose to follow that route. Though I think concern for the performers is admirable, most performers are ok with where they are. It's actually a little bit ridiculous that men get up in arms about women when they choose to go into the industry; it's a mostly free choice. Men act like the performers can't like what they do, which is wrong. http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/its-a-lap-dance-accept-it/ http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/its-a-lap-dance-a...
Surio 14y ago
+1 Actually, IMO, you do raise some very good (and uncomfortable) points. I've read on the papers that research studies actually support the points you make. Here's the article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dine... There was another article that mentioned that an explosion in access to [western made] pornographic materials in many African countries has distorted the views across the male population (from adolescents to old men). As a consequence the stats on rapes being committed has gone up very significantly (Alas: I cannot seem to find a link)

vacri 14y ago

One might get the idea that the only thing a man need do to make a woman enjoy sex is to pound her fast and hard. While I'm not about to argue that porn is a particularly accurate depiction of sex, I always find it interesting that these kinds of criticisms of it always seem to ignore the frequent cunnilingus in it. One of the things I like about this article is that it's about data mining rather than selection bias. Not to say that the article isn't biased, but that it's less biased.

CodeMage 14y ago
I can't speak for other people, but I can offer you insight into how I think about these things. It's not that I ignore the frequent cunnilingus in porn, it's that I don't see the need to mention it because I don't look at porn as an equation, as in "Well, he's going from ungentle and obviously painful anal directly to rough fellatio, but that's perfectly okay because of the long cunnilingus at the beginning." I'm not trying to portray all porn as bad and degrading, nor am I denying that there is good (and sometimes even realistic) sex in it. Nor do I claim that it all should be realistic. What concerns me and motivates me to comment on porn are the following things: 1) the prevalence of casual degradation of women in porn. 2) what people learn to expect based on porn. 3) how many people seem to be either unaware of some (or all) of the above or aware but believe it's normal and acceptable.
- tsotha 14y ago
  Do you have any reason to believe people are actually looking to porn as some sort of instruction manual? Rates of rape (at least in the US) have fallen dramatically over the last two decades, which isn't something you'd expect if men see porn as an information resource.
  - vacri 14y ago
    People do tend to imitate what they see. Certainly it's not set in stone and there are always counterexamples, but overall, the trend is to mimic observed behaviour - hence the idea of things like 'leading by example'. That being said, there's a lot of different types of porn. Saying "I watch porn" is like saying "I read fiction". It certainly tells us a bit about you, but isn't particularly definitive - do you read lightweight trash like Dan Brown, do you prefer mysteries, bodice-rippers, fantasies, war novels, or the complexities of writers like Eco? Perhaps a little bit of everything depending on the mood?
  - Surio 14y ago
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dine...

marknutter 14y ago

The real truth is, there's a wide range of porn catering to a wide array of interests and you're narrowly focusing in on a very small slice of that array.

jules 14y ago

> Second, a lot of porn out there focuses on and glorifies the woman's suffering, pain and degradation. Seriously, you only have to read the word "painal" once to realize that. However, if that's not enough, you might also look for the occurrences of "choke", "gag", "destroy", "slut", etc. I might be mistaken here, but as far as I can tell this kind of porn is the minority. Also, isn't this 'degrading porn' meant for people who identify with the person being degraded? Whether you like it or not, the power dynamic is an integral part of human sexuality. That you see this in porn is just an effect of the phenomenon, not the cause. It's completely natural and benign. People saying that this is "wrong" and taboo are doing far more harm than good to the women and men (!) who enjoy being on that side of the power dynamic. Secondly, porn isn't meant to be realistic. Complaining about that is just like the people complaining about violence in video games and movies. People are perfectly capable of distinguishing reality from fiction. The reason people enjoy porn is exactly because it is not realistic -- it satisfies a fantasy, whether that is sex with a person who is far out of your league, or rough sex, or otherwise. The way to go here is to improve sex education, not to blame porn for not being sex education.

jseliger 14y ago
>I might be mistaken here, but as far as I can tell this kind of porn is the minority. Also, isn't this 'degrading porn' meant for people who identify with the person being degraded? I've dated women (note the plural) who were into this sort of porn. I'm not a random sample, obviously, but take a look at books like A Billion Wicked Thoughts and The Evolutionary Biology of Human Female Sexuality, or Meredith Chivers' work: bdsm-style desires appear to be more common than is commonly depicted in the media.
- jules 14y ago
  Yes, it is far more common than people think and admit, and it really shouldn't be a taboo (like it is for women, but perhaps even more so for men). However, I do think that if you look at all the porn combined, this is a minority.
- fluidcruft 14y ago
  I'm skeptical of your claim which implies that this type of porn is predominantly marketed to and consumed by women.

jiggy2011 14y ago

This seems to make the assumption that there is a right and wrong way to have sex and that there is a definitive list of things that women do and do not enjoy. Of course it stands to reason that porn marketed to men will put more focus on the parts that men are more likely to enjoy and the marketing will also reflect this. So a scene showing fairly vanilla sex will be labelled "slut gets destroyed by huge cock" or something. To be honest I would suspect that women in porn who truly hate the experience wouldn't last too long. It's more likely that they simply find it boring after a while than outright unpleasant. In other words doing anal to them would be like debugging to us.

saucetenuto 14y ago
So if you're marketing porn to men, it's better to write "slut gets destroyed by huge cock" than e.g. "man has great sex"? I think you're right, but it's pretty disturbing, hearing it put that way.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  I think most people would understand that "destroy" does not literally mean destroy. Usually men have the dominant role during sex whilst women prefer to be submissive (though obviously not always the case). Using hyperbolic language is a safe and effective way to demonstrate dominance.
  - droidist2 14y ago
    True. People sensationalize to get more views. It's like how people title YouTube videos things like "Hillary Clinton gets smacked down by Obama in debate" when it's just a clip of a routine rebuttal by Obama.
  - groby_b 14y ago
    What a load of BS. No, women do not "prefer to be submissive", except in some misguided guys' fantasy lives. And it really doesn't matter that destroy isn't meant literally - it's still used as a term intent to degrade and humiliate. It's about male power fantasies.

henrikschroder 14y ago

> First of all, there's very little porn out there where the woman truly enjoys the experience. There's a lot of porn out there that has no women at all in it. I agree with you that there is a lot of bad porn, and that there are a lot of bad things prevalent in porn, but that specific point of the author stands pretty strong. You have to preface the discussion by asking "which porn?". In your comment you've already narrowed your definition of "porn" into a specific segment.

sergiotapia 14y ago

Downvoted you because of this gem: >Second, a lot of porn out there focuses on and glorifies the woman's suffering, pain and degradation. Seriously, you only have to read the word "painal" once to realize that. However, if that's not enough, you might also look for the occurrences of "choke", "gag", "destroy", "slut", etc. --- You're searching for that specific type of porn - of course it's going to be degrading. Your whole argument falls flat on it's face I'm afraid.

fluidcruft 14y ago
I think the point is the relative proportion of available/consumed porn that falls into these categories. Anecdotally, I agree with CodeMage that this sort of porn seems to be the predominant form (at least within the commercial variety of porn advertised on the internet). Perhaps what's needed is some sort of measurement of the different classifications. I really think you should address the point of proportion of this type of porn consumed, rather than the methods that can be used to identify it.
CodeMage 14y ago
Why on earth would you draw the conclusion that I came up with that because I search for that kind of porn? Let me put it this way: if you go to a store looking for chocolate and there's a lot of products with hazelnuts and you remark on that, would you expect anyone to jump at you and say "That's because you were looking for chocolate with hazelnuts"?

TDL 14y ago

'Finally, I find the claim that "female porn stars dictate the type of sex they have by listing in their modelling profiles the acts they’re willing to perform on camera" to be disingenuous. It propagates the idea that everything is okay and whatever isn't okay is "her fault".' I honestly don't understand how you come the conclusion that women controlling their working conditions ends up propagating victim blaming in sexual assaults. Hopefully you can clarify.

tomjen3 14y ago

sigzero 14y ago
Religion has nothing to do with it. Porn is degrading.
- tsotha 14y ago
  "Degrading" is one of those words that seems to mean something but when you get down to brass tacks it's so subjective it really doesn't. If the performer is willing to do something for the money the producer is offering and have the act shown to the world clearly she doesn't share your value system. If her decision offends you then don't watch porn.

notgrace 14y ago

I'm female and I have my toe in that industry. I am not in the skin trade, but I am in a position where I have a bit of exposure to it. 1) Yes, most porn focuses on the male's pleasure, which is a common complaint. That's why James Deen makes money: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2011/11/17/porn_that_women_like_why_does_it_make_men_so_uncomfortable_.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2011/11/17/porn_that_wo... 2) Yes. Some women are into that. I feel like you are unnecessarily close-minded about the idea that women might like a range of experiences. I also agree with other commenters on their ideas that naming porn conventions do not actually indicate suffering, pain, and degradation. 3) True. Porn is not meant as educational material; be safe. 4) It does create unrealistic expectations, but almost nobody expects porn to be like real life. Female porn stars do get to choose what kind of sex they have. I hate victim blame just as much as the next woman, but saying that porn stars can choose what to do is not victim blame. Porn stars live in a world where they get paid for what they decide to do. The skin industry does have some people who are not there by choice but necessity...but the vast majority are there because they chose to follow that route. Though I think concern for the performers is admirable, most performers are ok with where they are. It's actually a little bit ridiculous that men get up in arms about women when they choose to go into the industry; it's a mostly free choice. Men act like the performers can't like what they do, which is wrong. http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/its-a-lap-dance-accept-it/ http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/its-a-lap-dance-a...

Surio 14y ago

+1 Actually, IMO, you do raise some very good (and uncomfortable) points. I've read on the papers that research studies actually support the points you make. Here's the article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dine... There was another article that mentioned that an explosion in access to [western made] pornographic materials in many African countries has distorted the views across the male population (from adolescents to old men). As a consequence the stats on rapes being committed has gone up very significantly (Alas: I cannot seem to find a link)