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That web designer turned a contract issue into a potential tortious interference issue -- against him.

by jstalin 14y ago

tptacek 14y ago
Is the claim here really tortious interference? Or is it conversion? Or something else? Taking down a deadbeat client's website if they're entirely in breach of the contract that created it seems like it would be reasonable, but I agree that hosting a new website in its place to broadcast a grievance is probably a bad idea. I had fairly complicated Python and C code I'm reviewing coming out of my ears so I did some research on this to clear my head. I couldn't find any solid answers. I'd be interested in hearing one from a lawyer, because this comes up on HN every now and then. Back to code review for me. Wish me luck.
- dfxm12 14y ago
  In a perfect world, there would be clauses in the contract explaining what happens when there is a failure to pay. Of course, we have no idea if there even is a contract.
  - jstalin 14y ago
    There certainly is a contract, even if it was oral, the question is what were the terms of the contract. Likely there were no terms dealing with what happens if there is no payment.
    - dfxm12 14y ago
      Do you know for a fact? This is a San Francisco based company working with a German company. If they were both US based, you'd be correct for sure.
      - jstalin 14y ago
        You might not realize that just sending an email to a design company saying "Please design us a web site and we'll pay you $500" creates a contract (assuming the design company responds and says "ok!"). I doubt the design company would have gotten started without any kind of price term being set.
        dfxm12 14y ago
        I know this is the case if both parties are in the US. However, these are two parties from two different countries, each with different laws and jurisdictions. Do you know enough about contract laws in the US and Germany to assert this as the truth?
        jstalin 14y ago
        Well, it would be hard for the German company to claim there was no contract when they're trying to collect on it. As for US law, yes, there is enough there for a contract to be formed. Additionally, the CISG may apply if the contract was for goods as opposed to services. Both the US and Germany are signatories. So that poses a good question - is web and graphic design a service or are they selling you the final product as a good?
- jstalin 14y ago
  Conversion might work too. Of course, any suit would probably go after them using as many legal theories as possible. Tortious interference comes into play when you are purposely trying to interfere with someone else's business arrangements, either those already existing or those expected to occur. There's a difference between taking someone's site down for non-payment and putting up a statement saying that X Company doesn't pay its bills that X Company has bad morals. Corporate defamation would be another that I would add to the list. Of course, then there's the practical reality of suing a company in Germany from SF.
  - analog 14y ago
    "Corporate defamation would be another that I would add to the list." It's not defamation if it's true of course.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Is the idea here tortious interference w/o contract, with the designers interfering with business relationships between SF Fitness and their customers? That makes more sense.
beedogs 14y ago
Thankfully, he's in Europe, so there's really no way that'd affect him. I think it's a brilliant move on his part; it'll likely cost the customer at least some business, and I love seeing deadbeats humiliated.

That web designer turned a contract issue into a potential tortious interference issue -- against him.

by jstalin 14y ago

That web designer turned a contract issue into a potential tortious interference issue -- against him.

Is the claim here really tortious interference? Or is it conversion? Or something else? Taking down a deadbeat client's website if they're entirely in breach of the contract that created it seems like it would be reasonable, but I agree that hosting a new website in its place to broadcast a grievance is probably a bad idea. I had fairly complicated Python and C code I'm reviewing coming out of my ears so I did some research on this to clear my head. I couldn't find any solid answers. I'd be interested in hearing one from a lawyer, because this comes up on HN every now and then. Back to code review for me. Wish me luck.

dfxm12 14y ago
In a perfect world, there would be clauses in the contract explaining what happens when there is a failure to pay. Of course, we have no idea if there even is a contract.
- jstalin 14y ago
  There certainly is a contract, even if it was oral, the question is what were the terms of the contract. Likely there were no terms dealing with what happens if there is no payment.
  - dfxm12 14y ago
    Do you know for a fact? This is a San Francisco based company working with a German company. If they were both US based, you'd be correct for sure.
    - jstalin 14y ago
      You might not realize that just sending an email to a design company saying "Please design us a web site and we'll pay you $500" creates a contract (assuming the design company responds and says "ok!"). I doubt the design company would have gotten started without any kind of price term being set.
      - dfxm12 14y ago
        I know this is the case if both parties are in the US. However, these are two parties from two different countries, each with different laws and jurisdictions. Do you know enough about contract laws in the US and Germany to assert this as the truth?
        jstalin 14y ago
        Well, it would be hard for the German company to claim there was no contract when they're trying to collect on it. As for US law, yes, there is enough there for a contract to be formed. Additionally, the CISG may apply if the contract was for goods as opposed to services. Both the US and Germany are signatories. So that poses a good question - is web and graphic design a service or are they selling you the final product as a good?
jstalin 14y ago
Conversion might work too. Of course, any suit would probably go after them using as many legal theories as possible. Tortious interference comes into play when you are purposely trying to interfere with someone else's business arrangements, either those already existing or those expected to occur. There's a difference between taking someone's site down for non-payment and putting up a statement saying that X Company doesn't pay its bills that X Company has bad morals. Corporate defamation would be another that I would add to the list. Of course, then there's the practical reality of suing a company in Germany from SF.
- analog 14y ago
  "Corporate defamation would be another that I would add to the list." It's not defamation if it's true of course.
tptacek 14y ago
Is the idea here tortious interference w/o contract, with the designers interfering with business relationships between SF Fitness and their customers? That makes more sense.

beedogs 14y ago

Thankfully, he's in Europe, so there's really no way that'd affect him. I think it's a brilliant move on his part; it'll likely cost the customer at least some business, and I love seeing deadbeats humiliated.