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Like the OP, I'm assuming many of us, have a great deal of respect for his intellect and integrity, but honestly, I can't help feeling a bit let down by the wa

by wamatt 14y ago

Like the OP, I'm assuming many of us, have a great deal of respect for his intellect and integrity, but honestly, I can't help feeling a bit let down by the way Mr Musk has handled the situation. Musk opens the rebuttal with: "We are upset by this article because it does not factually represent Tesla technology, which is designed and tested to operate well in both hot and cold climates." It certainly feels somewhat disingenuous to mention nothing, of what arguably should be, the central discussion point: The Model S (more specifically the car's Li-Ion battery pack) performs unusually poorly in frigid conditions. While as a nerdier group we tend to love data and generally have a higher faith in empirical methods, in this instance, it does appear more like a data deluge. As a result, this ends up detracting focus and deflecting any valid criticism of the car. Although I've been following TM for years now, the battery pack temperature issue was still a surprise to me. More importantly, Tesla owners are finding this out the hard way too. [1][2] Did the NYT reporter add a little journalistic embellish to the story? Probably. Is the review a complete work of fiction as Musk judged it? Unlikely, and what is more probable is that Musk has simply overreacted and has taken it personally. Indeed he is still human after all. [1] http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13633-NYT-article-Stalled-on-the-EV-Highway http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13633-NYT-arti... [2] http://andwediditourway.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-not-so-ev-life.html http://andwediditourway.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-not-so-ev... (attr. iyulaev)

glass- 14y ago
> It certainly feels somewhat disingenuous to mention nothing, of what arguably should be, the central discussion point: The Model S (more specifically the car's Li-Ion battery pack) performs unusually poorly in frigid conditions. If you listen to the interviews Musk gave with the likes of Bloomberg about this, he explains how they have taken care to make the car perform well in the cold. Things such as moving heat from the motor into the battery-pack and, when it detects cold temperatures, closing shutters at the front of the car to insulate it.
- wamatt 14y ago
  That's a good point. Although, irrespective of how thoughtfully Tesla may have attempted to mitigate the fundamental problem through novel engineering, the reality seems to reflect something else. Having now entered the market in full swing, car owners are confirming this is a valid issue (especially in the very cold climate states). To be fair though, sub-zero temperature battery issues generally affect EVs across the board.[1] However, Tesla is positioning itself as the first mainstream car manufacture to go all out on EV. Thus, surely the onus ought to fall with them, when it comes to educating the 'ICE(internal combustion engine)-driving' public as to the potential pitfalls and differences between ICEs and EVs? Instead the company seems to be ignoring the issue, hoping it will go away. It's not within the public's experience, that if you leave your vehicle unplugged overnight, in extreme cold, the range can have reduced itself significantly by the next morning. Contrastingly, operating under normal conditions, the manual allegedly states (Page 25) about a 1% discharge rate per day. [2] Now ordinarily I might say this is a once off. But it would appear, lack of adequate customer education is a recurring concern. Consider the case of an early adopter (Max Drucker) that had his Tesla Roadster bricked [3][4]. He was told he needed to pay $40 000 for a new battery pack because he was 'negligent'. His transgression? Leaving it unplugged for 2 months in a temporary garage while renovating his home. What could be negligent, is Tesla failing to highlight possible issues pertaining to their EV vehicles and how they differ from ICE expectations. Burying important or even critical details in the manual/warranty docket, seems questionable. Still a huge supporter of what they are trying to achieve, but their refusal to admit any fault and tendency to blame the customer, is a tad off-putting. [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/27/AR2011012706170.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01... [2] http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12188-Battery-discharges-at-a-rate-of-1-per-day-(page-25-Model-S-owners-manual) http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12188-Battery-... [3] http://www.examiner.com/article/it-s-a-brick-tesla-s-batteries-under-question http://www.examiner.com/article/it-s-a-brick-tesla-s-batteri... [4] http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/02/bricked-tesla-roadsters/ http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/02/bricked-tesla-roadsters...
chaz 14y ago
> Did the NYT reporter add a little journalistic embellish to the story? Probably. Agree that it's not a total work of fiction and there are clearly issues that EV shoppers should consider. But how much embellishment should we expect and allow in future reviews from the NYT? Integrity in journalism is pretty much everything, and it looks like enough questions are being raised that some readers will wonder what the NYT is mischaracterizing.
brk 14y ago
It certainly feels somewhat disingenuous to mention nothing, of what arguably should be, the central discussion point: The Model S (more specifically the car's Li-Ion battery pack) performs unusually poorly in frigid conditions. When reading the article I found it interesting that for the data points relating to the NYT test drive he speaks in precise and specific numbers. When discussing the vehicles in cold climates (Norway and Sweden) he speaks in "per capita" and "half", but never mentions exact numbers. The cold weather battery issue is certainly something not worth glassing over. It doesn't have to be a deal-killer for the car, but is probably something that they shouldn't try to politic around. It's not like a firmware upgrade is going to suddenly circumvent a chemical/physics issue with the battery, so just be up front about the current state of the battery technology.
pwthornton 14y ago
No, no, no. There is no such thing as journalistic embellishment. That's not okay, and certainly not for a journalist at The New York Times of all places. I'm a journalist, and I expected what was written by Broder to be accurate, not embellished. This isn't Top Gear. There is no story to tell, just the truth.

by wamatt 14y ago

glass- 14y ago

> It certainly feels somewhat disingenuous to mention nothing, of what arguably should be, the central discussion point: The Model S (more specifically the car's Li-Ion battery pack) performs unusually poorly in frigid conditions. If you listen to the interviews Musk gave with the likes of Bloomberg about this, he explains how they have taken care to make the car perform well in the cold. Things such as moving heat from the motor into the battery-pack and, when it detects cold temperatures, closing shutters at the front of the car to insulate it.

wamatt 14y ago
That's a good point. Although, irrespective of how thoughtfully Tesla may have attempted to mitigate the fundamental problem through novel engineering, the reality seems to reflect something else. Having now entered the market in full swing, car owners are confirming this is a valid issue (especially in the very cold climate states). To be fair though, sub-zero temperature battery issues generally affect EVs across the board.[1] However, Tesla is positioning itself as the first mainstream car manufacture to go all out on EV. Thus, surely the onus ought to fall with them, when it comes to educating the 'ICE(internal combustion engine)-driving' public as to the potential pitfalls and differences between ICEs and EVs? Instead the company seems to be ignoring the issue, hoping it will go away. It's not within the public's experience, that if you leave your vehicle unplugged overnight, in extreme cold, the range can have reduced itself significantly by the next morning. Contrastingly, operating under normal conditions, the manual allegedly states (Page 25) about a 1% discharge rate per day. [2] Now ordinarily I might say this is a once off. But it would appear, lack of adequate customer education is a recurring concern. Consider the case of an early adopter (Max Drucker) that had his Tesla Roadster bricked [3][4]. He was told he needed to pay $40 000 for a new battery pack because he was 'negligent'. His transgression? Leaving it unplugged for 2 months in a temporary garage while renovating his home. What could be negligent, is Tesla failing to highlight possible issues pertaining to their EV vehicles and how they differ from ICE expectations. Burying important or even critical details in the manual/warranty docket, seems questionable. Still a huge supporter of what they are trying to achieve, but their refusal to admit any fault and tendency to blame the customer, is a tad off-putting. [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/27/AR2011012706170.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01... [2] http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12188-Battery-discharges-at-a-rate-of-1-per-day-(page-25-Model-S-owners-manual) http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12188-Battery-... [3] http://www.examiner.com/article/it-s-a-brick-tesla-s-batteries-under-question http://www.examiner.com/article/it-s-a-brick-tesla-s-batteri... [4] http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/02/bricked-tesla-roadsters/ http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/02/bricked-tesla-roadsters...

chaz 14y ago

> Did the NYT reporter add a little journalistic embellish to the story? Probably. Agree that it's not a total work of fiction and there are clearly issues that EV shoppers should consider. But how much embellishment should we expect and allow in future reviews from the NYT? Integrity in journalism is pretty much everything, and it looks like enough questions are being raised that some readers will wonder what the NYT is mischaracterizing.

brk 14y ago

It certainly feels somewhat disingenuous to mention nothing, of what arguably should be, the central discussion point: The Model S (more specifically the car's Li-Ion battery pack) performs unusually poorly in frigid conditions. When reading the article I found it interesting that for the data points relating to the NYT test drive he speaks in precise and specific numbers. When discussing the vehicles in cold climates (Norway and Sweden) he speaks in "per capita" and "half", but never mentions exact numbers. The cold weather battery issue is certainly something not worth glassing over. It doesn't have to be a deal-killer for the car, but is probably something that they shouldn't try to politic around. It's not like a firmware upgrade is going to suddenly circumvent a chemical/physics issue with the battery, so just be up front about the current state of the battery technology.

pwthornton 14y ago

No, no, no. There is no such thing as journalistic embellishment. That's not okay, and certainly not for a journalist at The New York Times of all places. I'm a journalist, and I expected what was written by Broder to be accurate, not embellished. This isn't Top Gear. There is no story to tell, just the truth.