10 ms·

Paying for hackernews frontpage links, now?

36 points by slater 18y ago

noodle 18y ago
for under $100? i don't think they understand how much people have paid for frontpage status on digg/reddit in the past. as for HN, i suppose it was only a matter of time before someone tried to game the system (if they aren't already).
minsight 18y ago
It's inevitable. The theory is that the algorithmic protection and a little bit of oversight can remove the irrelevant stuff. If someone wants to pay to submit relevant stuff, then I don't see a problem.
- daveambrose 18y ago
  I do. I come here to read stories that are authentic. When or if I figure out that someone "paid" to get their post or article to the front page of a site like this, I'll start to lose something that I consider the best part of HN: honesty and respect. [1] [1] Maybe with the exception of a few people I read on Tumblr each morning, HN is the most authentic community of like-minded folks who seem to either (a) care about the viewpoints of other members or (b) act civilized rather than become trolls.
  - noodle 18y ago
    i agree. its why i don't read digg/reddit.
    - w1ntermute 18y ago
      Digg/Reddit used to be civilized and intelligent as well, but then they grew in popularity and everything went downhill from there. It is definitely possible for the same thing to happen to HN if something (I have no idea what) isn't actively done to prevent it.
      - noodle 18y ago
        difference between digg/reddit and HN is that HN users typically actively police, and the application restricts functionality based on your karma. you're not allowed to do certain things unless you have a certain level of trust, which isn't the case on digg/reddit.
        w1ntermute 18y ago
        "HN users typically actively police" This isn't very scalable. If HN's userbase were of the same size as Digg's or Reddit's and most of those people were unwanted (i.e., if a large group of Digg/Reddit users were to begin frequenting HN), it would not be able to prevent them from saying/doing as they pleased. "the application restricts functionality based on your karma" The karma is determined by other user's ratings, right? How well is that going to work if a majority of the users are similar to your average Digg/Reddit user? One of the big differences that makes it possible for HN to maintain its civility is its relatively small size. So far, I have not seen any scalable methods of moderating a user-contributed link aggregation website. Therefore, I can only hope that Digg/Reddit users don't find out about HN (which is mostly a pipe dream).
        allenbrunson 18y ago
        i don't think you've been here long enough to know how this site works. if somebody submits off-topic or spammy links, they will be killed. if somebody starts acting like a jerk, their account will be killed. it doesn't really matter what the average hn user thinks about it, they will be killed anyway. the editors are very ruthless about this. it doesn't matter how many unruly users come here, they will either abide by the rules or they will be banned, period.
        mixmax 18y ago
        Actually I think the main difference is that Reddit is a business and HN is not. Reddit's management should do whatever it takes to maximise revenue, and this often means going for the lowest (or at least lower) common denominator. HN is different, it is not directly about making money, but about getting intelligent people to have civil doscussions on tech and entrepreneurship, presumably to market ycombinator.
chanux 18y ago
If the guy had mentioned the two links on that page he could hope for being on HN front page :D .
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
ShabbyDoo 18y ago
Somebody should bid $10 on it just to see who's behind it.
- chaosmachine 18y ago
  According to Reddit, this guy: http://tamournkhan.com/Qualifications.php http://tamournkhan.com/Qualifications.php
  - biohacker42 18y ago
    Master of Science in Entrepreneurship? I wonder if I get a Ph.D in making it rich.
- kirse 18y ago
  Just look up his username on Google... Based off his twitter account I'm guessing he runs the website: http://www.androidster.com http://www.androidster.com
moe 18y ago
Well, they could disguise their content as an Erlang story...
iuguy 18y ago
I imagine it's probably not that difficult to game HN. The community's not that big, the big gaming boys work elsewhere on much larger sites so scaling down to HN won't be hard. If the article doesn't fit HN though, that's a different question.
- vaksel 18y ago
  you can get to the top with 2-3 upvotes, hardly impossible
  - axod 18y ago
    If it's a lame article/spam/offtopic it'd usually get killed pretty quickly though. I'm not sure that's the case on digg/reddit.
  - chris11 18y ago
    I've gotten to the first page with that number of upvotes, so it's definitely doable, you just need to have the link voted on shortly after submission.
  - mixmax 18y ago
    Depends on who upvotes, different users have different weight.
- ErrantX 18y ago
  Create 50 or 60 accounts and keep them ticking over (i.e. voting on random articles daily - maybe even comment from a few & submit the odd semi legit link). Then submit what you want and upvote carefully. Voila. Probably not that hard: though given the size of the community I'd hope we'd spot them.
DanielBMarkham 18y ago
Just googling around, looks like the guy is Tamour Khan, from Pembroke Pnes, FL Tamour? You out there dude? Care to explain? What do you need to promote so badly you don't trust the board to vote you up or down?
- blurry 18y ago
  My guess is he wants to push androidster.com (android app consulting)
  - huhtenberg 18y ago
    It'd be absolutely brilliant if it were him who submitted this news item ! :) The cake is a lie.
il 18y ago
Gaming social news sites has been going on for quite some time now, although I don't see why anyonenwould bother gaming HN- the traffic is minimal and too savvy to click on ads. As for Digg and reddit- many of you have startups and blogs that are floundering with minimal traffic and revenue. Instead of complaining and being all up in arms, perhaps you should accept that Digg and reddit have been gamed by numerous entities for years, and learn how to game them for your own benefit. That doesn't mean spamming, it means giving your own quality content an extra push. Back when I did that sort of thing, I got dozens of stories to the Digg and reddit front pages. After receiving, synthetically, with many accounts and proxies, the first hundred or so votes needed to get to the front page, these stories went on to receive thousands of natural, real upvotes. So much for your "algorithms". If you can't beat them, join them.
- swombat 18y ago
  Getting your friends to vote you up is one thing... getting a network of proxied spam bots to do so is another. There's a fine line between "giving an extra push" and being downright unethical. I usually try to convince people (on twitter and irc and personally) to upvote my stories when I think they'll be of interest, but I would never actually contrive a script to do that for me. I'll add that in my experience, the relatively small push of getting a few initial upvotes from friends, even on reddit, is usually enough to propel articles onto wherever they're destined to go. You don't need a 100 fake votes.
  - chris11 18y ago
    Is this a common occurrence here? I've heard of power users on digg doing this, but I'm slightly surprised its happening here.
    - rms 18y ago
      No... Ed W and I did an interview with Andrew Warner and Andrew seemed surprised that we basically had no method for getting stories to the front page. At the time of the interview I hadn't had a high point story for a month. The powers that be are very good at what they do. They usually notice things that are out of the ordinary.
JoelSutherland 18y ago
Which is worse: 1. A 'paid' frontpage story that is sufficiently HN related so that a moderator doesn't kill it, 2. A frontpage story showing evidence that somebody wants to game a social news site.
- jerf 18y ago
  The first is part of the charter of this site. That it doesn't come up often doesn't change that. The second is something neither the site owners nor the site community want.
icey 18y ago
I would really, really, really love to be able to see who upvotes a story (just in general).
- ivankirigin 18y ago
  I'd make my up & downvotes public if I could.
  - blasdel 18y ago
    Crawl http://news.ycombinator.com/saved?id=XXX http://news.ycombinator.com/saved?id=XXX using your login cookie.
    - icey 18y ago
      That only works for your own login, no?
spoiledtechie 18y ago
http://www.division1movers.com/ http://www.division1movers.com/ Looks like he might want to promote this site on Digg and Reddit.
JabavuAdams 18y ago
Then there are guys like me who submitted his iPhone app info-mercial article at midnight on Valentine's day. Fail.

36 points by slater 18y ago

for under $100? i don't think they understand how much people have paid for frontpage status on digg/reddit in the past. as for HN, i suppose it was only a matter of time before someone tried to game the system (if they aren't already).

minsight 18y ago

It's inevitable. The theory is that the algorithmic protection and a little bit of oversight can remove the irrelevant stuff. If someone wants to pay to submit relevant stuff, then I don't see a problem.

daveambrose 18y ago
I do. I come here to read stories that are authentic. When or if I figure out that someone "paid" to get their post or article to the front page of a site like this, I'll start to lose something that I consider the best part of HN: honesty and respect. [1] [1] Maybe with the exception of a few people I read on Tumblr each morning, HN is the most authentic community of like-minded folks who seem to either (a) care about the viewpoints of other members or (b) act civilized rather than become trolls.
- noodle 18y ago
  i agree. its why i don't read digg/reddit.
  - w1ntermute 18y ago
    Digg/Reddit used to be civilized and intelligent as well, but then they grew in popularity and everything went downhill from there. It is definitely possible for the same thing to happen to HN if something (I have no idea what) isn't actively done to prevent it.
    - noodle 18y ago
      difference between digg/reddit and HN is that HN users typically actively police, and the application restricts functionality based on your karma. you're not allowed to do certain things unless you have a certain level of trust, which isn't the case on digg/reddit.
      - w1ntermute 18y ago
        "HN users typically actively police" This isn't very scalable. If HN's userbase were of the same size as Digg's or Reddit's and most of those people were unwanted (i.e., if a large group of Digg/Reddit users were to begin frequenting HN), it would not be able to prevent them from saying/doing as they pleased. "the application restricts functionality based on your karma" The karma is determined by other user's ratings, right? How well is that going to work if a majority of the users are similar to your average Digg/Reddit user? One of the big differences that makes it possible for HN to maintain its civility is its relatively small size. So far, I have not seen any scalable methods of moderating a user-contributed link aggregation website. Therefore, I can only hope that Digg/Reddit users don't find out about HN (which is mostly a pipe dream).
        allenbrunson 18y ago
        i don't think you've been here long enough to know how this site works. if somebody submits off-topic or spammy links, they will be killed. if somebody starts acting like a jerk, their account will be killed. it doesn't really matter what the average hn user thinks about it, they will be killed anyway. the editors are very ruthless about this. it doesn't matter how many unruly users come here, they will either abide by the rules or they will be banned, period.
      - mixmax 18y ago
        Actually I think the main difference is that Reddit is a business and HN is not. Reddit's management should do whatever it takes to maximise revenue, and this often means going for the lowest (or at least lower) common denominator. HN is different, it is not directly about making money, but about getting intelligent people to have civil doscussions on tech and entrepreneurship, presumably to market ycombinator.

chanux 18y ago

If the guy had mentioned the two links on that page he could hope for being on HN front page :D .

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

ShabbyDoo 18y ago

Somebody should bid $10 on it just to see who's behind it.

chaosmachine 18y ago
According to Reddit, this guy: http://tamournkhan.com/Qualifications.php http://tamournkhan.com/Qualifications.php
- biohacker42 18y ago
  Master of Science in Entrepreneurship? I wonder if I get a Ph.D in making it rich.
kirse 18y ago
Just look up his username on Google... Based off his twitter account I'm guessing he runs the website: http://www.androidster.com http://www.androidster.com

moe 18y ago

Well, they could disguise their content as an Erlang story...

iuguy 18y ago

I imagine it's probably not that difficult to game HN. The community's not that big, the big gaming boys work elsewhere on much larger sites so scaling down to HN won't be hard. If the article doesn't fit HN though, that's a different question.

vaksel 18y ago
you can get to the top with 2-3 upvotes, hardly impossible
- axod 18y ago
  If it's a lame article/spam/offtopic it'd usually get killed pretty quickly though. I'm not sure that's the case on digg/reddit.
- chris11 18y ago
  I've gotten to the first page with that number of upvotes, so it's definitely doable, you just need to have the link voted on shortly after submission.
- mixmax 18y ago
  Depends on who upvotes, different users have different weight.
ErrantX 18y ago
Create 50 or 60 accounts and keep them ticking over (i.e. voting on random articles daily - maybe even comment from a few & submit the odd semi legit link). Then submit what you want and upvote carefully. Voila. Probably not that hard: though given the size of the community I'd hope we'd spot them.

DanielBMarkham 18y ago

Just googling around, looks like the guy is Tamour Khan, from Pembroke Pnes, FL Tamour? You out there dude? Care to explain? What do you need to promote so badly you don't trust the board to vote you up or down?

blurry 18y ago
My guess is he wants to push androidster.com (android app consulting)
- huhtenberg 18y ago
  It'd be absolutely brilliant if it were him who submitted this news item ! :) The cake is a lie.

il 18y ago

Gaming social news sites has been going on for quite some time now, although I don't see why anyonenwould bother gaming HN- the traffic is minimal and too savvy to click on ads. As for Digg and reddit- many of you have startups and blogs that are floundering with minimal traffic and revenue. Instead of complaining and being all up in arms, perhaps you should accept that Digg and reddit have been gamed by numerous entities for years, and learn how to game them for your own benefit. That doesn't mean spamming, it means giving your own quality content an extra push. Back when I did that sort of thing, I got dozens of stories to the Digg and reddit front pages. After receiving, synthetically, with many accounts and proxies, the first hundred or so votes needed to get to the front page, these stories went on to receive thousands of natural, real upvotes. So much for your "algorithms". If you can't beat them, join them.

swombat 18y ago
Getting your friends to vote you up is one thing... getting a network of proxied spam bots to do so is another. There's a fine line between "giving an extra push" and being downright unethical. I usually try to convince people (on twitter and irc and personally) to upvote my stories when I think they'll be of interest, but I would never actually contrive a script to do that for me. I'll add that in my experience, the relatively small push of getting a few initial upvotes from friends, even on reddit, is usually enough to propel articles onto wherever they're destined to go. You don't need a 100 fake votes.
- chris11 18y ago
  Is this a common occurrence here? I've heard of power users on digg doing this, but I'm slightly surprised its happening here.
  - rms 18y ago
    No... Ed W and I did an interview with Andrew Warner and Andrew seemed surprised that we basically had no method for getting stories to the front page. At the time of the interview I hadn't had a high point story for a month. The powers that be are very good at what they do. They usually notice things that are out of the ordinary.

JoelSutherland 18y ago

Which is worse: 1. A 'paid' frontpage story that is sufficiently HN related so that a moderator doesn't kill it, 2. A frontpage story showing evidence that somebody wants to game a social news site.

jerf 18y ago
The first is part of the charter of this site. That it doesn't come up often doesn't change that. The second is something neither the site owners nor the site community want.

icey 18y ago

I would really, really, really love to be able to see who upvotes a story (just in general).

ivankirigin 18y ago
I'd make my up & downvotes public if I could.
- blasdel 18y ago
  Crawl http://news.ycombinator.com/saved?id=XXX http://news.ycombinator.com/saved?id=XXX using your login cookie.
  - icey 18y ago
    That only works for your own login, no?

spoiledtechie 18y ago

http://www.division1movers.com/ http://www.division1movers.com/ Looks like he might want to promote this site on Digg and Reddit.

JabavuAdams 18y ago

Then there are guys like me who submitted his iPhone app info-mercial article at midnight on Valentine's day. Fail.