7 ms·

You can reach the same insight by doing enough vipassana meditation. I've talked with people who, having gained this insight through LSD, psilocybin, or other m

by hosh 14y ago

You can reach the same insight by doing enough vipassana meditation. I've talked with people who, having gained this insight through LSD, psilocybin, or other methods, gain an interest in meditation. Either way, it's not so much that it cuts through socialized anxiety. Another insight you gain from this kind of experience is realizing how much you participated in creating the socialized anxiety within you. The anxiety doesn't go away so much as you become less attached to it. Being less attached to it, you see how it no longer serves a purpose in your life, and you're free to pay attention to the stuff that is more important. Like experiencing what time you have left -- and make no mistake, whether you have a terminal cancer, or not (or whether we make it to technology that allows someone to transfer personality into silicon), you too will eventually die. One day, I hope that we'll have socially sanctioned initiations, not just for treating existential anxiety in people facing terminal illness. It would cut away a lot of teenage adolescent bullshit, and a lot of midlife bullshit. Having experienced that "cosmic force" invites people to really connect with each other, something far more meaningful than our current crop of "social networks." So this isn't just about having a meaningful experience of death. It's about having a meaningful experience of life.

orasis 14y ago
To be concrete and explicit, my experience with death via vipassana is to notice gaps in experience where there is absolutely zero experience occurring. I've found this especially effective while falling asleep. If you get lucky, you'll be paying attention the exact moment that you fully lose consciousness. Doing this has made me fully comfortable with death, as there is simply nothing, no experience, no frame of reference, no self, nothing to judge, nothing to suffer. Highly recommended.
- hosh 14y ago
  Yep, I've been there. Then there's also the point when you realize the "gaps" are not gaps, but rather, what things are. Kinda like focusing on negative space. Then, there's the realization that the experiences (thoughts, emotions, sensations) arise and pass, begin and end all on their own. And that nowhere in there is any sense of self. So there is no sleeping or anything. Just ... here. Now, I've been trying all of that off the cushion. Mindful standing. Mindful walking. Mindful martial arts. Mindful coding. Mindfully listening to other people. With varying levels of success :-)
  - stephth 14y ago
    Mindful coding. Would you mind elaborating on that? I would have thought mindfulness (being aware of the present and being alive) would sit at the opposite end of a spectrum from coding (being deeply focused on abstract constructs). When I'm good, I remember to use mindfulness in the breaks between coding, but I can't imagine them in parallel. (Maybe you meant the former?) PS: great comments.
    - hosh 14y ago
      Thanks, I'm glad you like these. I was deeply influenced by the writings of Daniel Ingram. I encountered his book shortly after my first set of experiences, and the experiences were not like anything I had read about or assumed. Despite the controversy around his books, he has a framework I find useful. He introduced the notion of a "concentration object", and I realized you can use anything as a concentration object. Since a lot of people are out of touch with the senses, it is better to use a physical sense as the concentration object -- breathing, candle, etc. at least until you realized enough insights to go straight to just being. However, you can also use concentration objects that are constructed. They come and go anyways, so why wouldn't you use something that is not there? I have a wide network of acquaintances with people practicing all sorts of traditions, and I can render what they do in these terms. There is a whole class of practices where you create the concentration object and the concentrate on it. For example: a Buddhist mandala or pathworking the Sephiroth in Kabbalah. Where I find it useful in coding has more to do with the concentration skills gained from one-point concentration. So that is not strictly vipassana. However, more importantly, it has allowed me to consider code on its own merits instead of reacting to my Jungian shadows or to other Jungian shadows. There's a tendency for nerds and geeks to get emotional about their code, even defend it, and yet they will not admit to the emotions that run amok. Look in any thread about "What is the best programming language?" and you'll see it. Another useful thing is that ... knowing things come and go, that there is always an ending to anything that begins, means it is easier to let go of code. You don't get attached to code, so you have attachments to keeping it around. Leaving commented out code. Or diving back in and refactoring. Or recognizing when you are about go yak shaving, and no, that neat feature you did really isn't that important. Finally, as your awareness broadens, you really start thinking about just what kind of impact your code is making. Not in the social activist sense so much as one deeply informed by the realization you've gained on the cushion. Do you really want to be working on another social network for cats? Hope that helps, maybe provide some interesting things to explore :-)
- chrischen 14y ago
  If in death there is no experience, then all you have left is experience. So far in my life, I only have evidence of me being conscious and experiencing. I find it unlikely that my consciousness will cease to exist permanently especially if time is infinite.
  - hosh 14y ago
    Nice speculation. I invite you to give this stuff a shot with an open mind, and no expectations.
    - chrischen 14y ago
      I guess I'm just making the point that death being permanent is just as speculative.
      - hosh 14y ago
        For the people who experienced those insights, it is no longer speculative. They've seen it for themselves. That's why I invite you to practice instead of inviting you to debate.
        chrischen 14y ago
        I'm not arguing against whatever it is you're suggesting... but how exactly would that remove speculation over the permanence of death?
        hosh 14y ago
        You wouldn't be speculating anymore.
        chrischen 14y ago
        How would this meditation prove that death is permanent (or not permanent)?
rada 14y ago
You can reach the same insight by doing enough vipassana meditation. If someone posted an article about a new supersonic jet that takes you from New York to Sydney in under 4 hours, you could make a comment about being able to do the same by foot. You would be technically correct however it wouldn't be a very useful comment, given the difference between several hours and a lifetime.
- orasis 14y ago
  A minor nit: Many people can reach deep insight by meditating intensely for a week or less, not a lifetime. Testimonies of Deep Insight or Knowledge of the Arising and Passing - http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/12/if-this-is-indeed-a-p-congratulation.html http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/12/if-this-is-in... To reach the end of seeking and seeing that everything is already non-dual, many people can accomplish this in 18 months to 2 years.
  - 001sky 14y ago
    vipassana meditation == another nit: the first word is a useless adjective.
    - hosh 14y ago
      People have all sorts of notions about meditation. I'm writing for people who have become intrigued by the potential insights gained by psychedelics -- who may even be seeking relief from existential anxiety right now -- but may still have some doubts about using psychedelics. These folk are unlikely to to know what "vipassana" is, or that it is a meditation, or that there are lots of other things people call "meditation", and most importantly, a Google keyword to look through. If you know enough to nitpick this, then you probably didn't need the information :-D
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - 001sky 14y ago
flywheel 14y ago
Meditation is "the third way". The Fourth Way is superior in many respects. http://gurdjieff.tribe.net/thread/158f144d-6630-46e6-ad5d-f2e7967069e1 http://gurdjieff.tribe.net/thread/158f144d-6630-46e6-ad5d-f2... DMT is the epitome of the fourth way. It is transformative in a way that nothing else can really approach, not LSD or mushrooms or any amount of meditation, or what have you.
eric-hu 14y ago
Something my devout Buddhist uncle told me in our religious debates: "I'm not claiming Buddhism and meditation are the only way to enlightenment, just that they are one way." That's had a profound impact on my acceptance of people from different walks of life. I feel like one can find peace and enlightenment from a Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Islamic path, or as was the case with me, a psychedelic one. To me, there is no question of universally better. Perhaps one path is more suited to a particular individual, but that's up to him or her to discover.

by hosh 14y ago

orasis 14y ago

To be concrete and explicit, my experience with death via vipassana is to notice gaps in experience where there is absolutely zero experience occurring. I've found this especially effective while falling asleep. If you get lucky, you'll be paying attention the exact moment that you fully lose consciousness. Doing this has made me fully comfortable with death, as there is simply nothing, no experience, no frame of reference, no self, nothing to judge, nothing to suffer. Highly recommended.

hosh 14y ago
Yep, I've been there. Then there's also the point when you realize the "gaps" are not gaps, but rather, what things are. Kinda like focusing on negative space. Then, there's the realization that the experiences (thoughts, emotions, sensations) arise and pass, begin and end all on their own. And that nowhere in there is any sense of self. So there is no sleeping or anything. Just ... here. Now, I've been trying all of that off the cushion. Mindful standing. Mindful walking. Mindful martial arts. Mindful coding. Mindfully listening to other people. With varying levels of success :-)
- stephth 14y ago
  Mindful coding. Would you mind elaborating on that? I would have thought mindfulness (being aware of the present and being alive) would sit at the opposite end of a spectrum from coding (being deeply focused on abstract constructs). When I'm good, I remember to use mindfulness in the breaks between coding, but I can't imagine them in parallel. (Maybe you meant the former?) PS: great comments.
  - hosh 14y ago
    Thanks, I'm glad you like these. I was deeply influenced by the writings of Daniel Ingram. I encountered his book shortly after my first set of experiences, and the experiences were not like anything I had read about or assumed. Despite the controversy around his books, he has a framework I find useful. He introduced the notion of a "concentration object", and I realized you can use anything as a concentration object. Since a lot of people are out of touch with the senses, it is better to use a physical sense as the concentration object -- breathing, candle, etc. at least until you realized enough insights to go straight to just being. However, you can also use concentration objects that are constructed. They come and go anyways, so why wouldn't you use something that is not there? I have a wide network of acquaintances with people practicing all sorts of traditions, and I can render what they do in these terms. There is a whole class of practices where you create the concentration object and the concentrate on it. For example: a Buddhist mandala or pathworking the Sephiroth in Kabbalah. Where I find it useful in coding has more to do with the concentration skills gained from one-point concentration. So that is not strictly vipassana. However, more importantly, it has allowed me to consider code on its own merits instead of reacting to my Jungian shadows or to other Jungian shadows. There's a tendency for nerds and geeks to get emotional about their code, even defend it, and yet they will not admit to the emotions that run amok. Look in any thread about "What is the best programming language?" and you'll see it. Another useful thing is that ... knowing things come and go, that there is always an ending to anything that begins, means it is easier to let go of code. You don't get attached to code, so you have attachments to keeping it around. Leaving commented out code. Or diving back in and refactoring. Or recognizing when you are about go yak shaving, and no, that neat feature you did really isn't that important. Finally, as your awareness broadens, you really start thinking about just what kind of impact your code is making. Not in the social activist sense so much as one deeply informed by the realization you've gained on the cushion. Do you really want to be working on another social network for cats? Hope that helps, maybe provide some interesting things to explore :-)
chrischen 14y ago
If in death there is no experience, then all you have left is experience. So far in my life, I only have evidence of me being conscious and experiencing. I find it unlikely that my consciousness will cease to exist permanently especially if time is infinite.
- hosh 14y ago
  Nice speculation. I invite you to give this stuff a shot with an open mind, and no expectations.
  - chrischen 14y ago
    I guess I'm just making the point that death being permanent is just as speculative.
    - hosh 14y ago
      For the people who experienced those insights, it is no longer speculative. They've seen it for themselves. That's why I invite you to practice instead of inviting you to debate.
      - chrischen 14y ago
        I'm not arguing against whatever it is you're suggesting... but how exactly would that remove speculation over the permanence of death?
        hosh 14y ago
        You wouldn't be speculating anymore.
        chrischen 14y ago
        How would this meditation prove that death is permanent (or not permanent)?

rada 14y ago

You can reach the same insight by doing enough vipassana meditation. If someone posted an article about a new supersonic jet that takes you from New York to Sydney in under 4 hours, you could make a comment about being able to do the same by foot. You would be technically correct however it wouldn't be a very useful comment, given the difference between several hours and a lifetime.

orasis 14y ago
A minor nit: Many people can reach deep insight by meditating intensely for a week or less, not a lifetime. Testimonies of Deep Insight or Knowledge of the Arising and Passing - http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/12/if-this-is-indeed-a-p-congratulation.html http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/12/if-this-is-in... To reach the end of seeking and seeing that everything is already non-dual, many people can accomplish this in 18 months to 2 years.
- 001sky 14y ago
  vipassana meditation == another nit: the first word is a useless adjective.
  - hosh 14y ago
    People have all sorts of notions about meditation. I'm writing for people who have become intrigued by the potential insights gained by psychedelics -- who may even be seeking relief from existential anxiety right now -- but may still have some doubts about using psychedelics. These folk are unlikely to to know what "vipassana" is, or that it is a meditation, or that there are lots of other things people call "meditation", and most importantly, a Google keyword to look through. If you know enough to nitpick this, then you probably didn't need the information :-D
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - 001sky 14y ago

flywheel 14y ago

Meditation is "the third way". The Fourth Way is superior in many respects. http://gurdjieff.tribe.net/thread/158f144d-6630-46e6-ad5d-f2e7967069e1 http://gurdjieff.tribe.net/thread/158f144d-6630-46e6-ad5d-f2... DMT is the epitome of the fourth way. It is transformative in a way that nothing else can really approach, not LSD or mushrooms or any amount of meditation, or what have you.

eric-hu 14y ago

Something my devout Buddhist uncle told me in our religious debates: "I'm not claiming Buddhism and meditation are the only way to enlightenment, just that they are one way." That's had a profound impact on my acceptance of people from different walks of life. I feel like one can find peace and enlightenment from a Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Islamic path, or as was the case with me, a psychedelic one. To me, there is no question of universally better. Perhaps one path is more suited to a particular individual, but that's up to him or her to discover.