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I think you're overstating things - the population density of the US may be 34 people per square km, but most of it is nearly uninhabited - Americans cluster in

I think you're overstating things - the population density of the US may be 34 people per square km, but most of it is nearly uninhabited - Americans cluster into major metro areas just like their European counterparts. The density argument only makes sense if the mean is representative, which it isn't. Much more typically you're looking at suburban feeders into urban centers. Even (in)famously suburban place like metro LA clock in at around ~200 people per square km[1], which isn't quite like the UK, but isn't far off. The problem with American cities isn't how much space we use, it's how we use it. Meandering, twisting, turning streets present enormous transportation obstacles to anything that isn't a car, where grid-based layouts facilitate cycling and walking. There is this curious, and somewhat crazy, notion that Europeans live all stacked up on each other in some imagined urban paradise (or hell, depending on who you ask), and Americans live in some sparsely-populated wilderness. Neither impression are true. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Los_Angeles_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Los_Angeles_Area

jdbernard 14y ago
> There is this curious, and somewhat crazy, notion that Europeans live all stacked up on each other in some imagined urban paradise (or hell, depending on who you ask), and Americans live in some sparsely-populated wilderness. Neither impression are [sic] true. OK, let's get more specific. Here are some of the larger metro areas (bulk of the population, right?) for the US and for Europe: New York metro area[1]: 720/km2 Chicago metro area[2]: 509/km2 Miami metro area[3]: 315/km2 Houston metro area[4]: 215/km2 Paris metro area[5]: 21,196/km2 London metro area[6]: 5,206/km2 Madrid metro area[7]: 1,267/km2 Instanbul metro area[8]: 2,593/km2 Or compare every urban area on the list in the UK[9] all of which have more than 2000 people per km2 and the list of the largest urban areas in Europe[10], again with 80% > 2000/km2--the top 10 > 5000/km2, with the largest urban areas in the US[11] where less than 5 have 2000+, and 95% have < 1500 people per km2. America may not have invented the suburbs, but we do them like nobody else because we have tons of space. I live in Austin, TX. I can get on the road and be in the countryside in under 30 minutes--real countryside with no buildings in sight. Can you even do that in the UK? France? I have family in St. Louis. If I drive there from Austin, that's 1300km. Largeish cities I would hit are Dallas and Springfield, MO. I could go from Rotterdam to Andorra with the same distance and pass through Antwerp, Paris, Orleans, Toulouse, etc. Even if we assumed the average American city is as dense as those in Europe (they aren't) we still have the fact that in most parts of America you have long stretches of empty freeway between major metro areas. Austin TX to Houston, for example, is a 260km (160mi). Atlanta, GA to anywhere of note is at least 160km(100mi). Even California: San Diago to LA, 160km(100mi); Sacramento to San Fransisco: 140km(90mi); San Fransisco to LA: almost 600 km. That's almost the same as London to Glasgow, and you traverse most of the UK. Further than Paris to Bordeaux, again you cross most of France. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_metropolitan_area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_metropolitan_area [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Houston http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Houston [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_commuter_belt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_commuter_belt [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid#Metropolitan_area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid#Metropolitan_area [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Unit... [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_urban_areas_of_the_European_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_urban_areas_of_the_Euro... [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_are...
- madaxe 14y ago
  >> Can you even do that in the UK? France? Yes, totally. I live in a city of just shy of a million people in the UK, and I can see the countryside from my desk in the middle of it. It's a 15 minute walk out of town. A big advantage of population density is that transportation is cheaper and you have less distance to travel to get out of the city - conversely in the US you have to drive through mile upon mile of suburban sprawl. A further counter-argument is that there are plenty of countries far, far emptier than the US (Kaz, Ukraine, Belarus), which retain high-density minimal-sprawl cities due to having been built either before the advent of the car, or since, but with a view to retaining accessibility for pedestrians, cyclists and public transport. Russia is sprawly, but they don't really do suburbs, they do massive industrial complexes on city outskirts, and have population centralised. Different strokes for different folks.

jdbernard 14y ago

> There is this curious, and somewhat crazy, notion that Europeans live all stacked up on each other in some imagined urban paradise (or hell, depending on who you ask), and Americans live in some sparsely-populated wilderness. Neither impression are [sic] true. OK, let's get more specific. Here are some of the larger metro areas (bulk of the population, right?) for the US and for Europe: New York metro area[1]: 720/km2 Chicago metro area[2]: 509/km2 Miami metro area[3]: 315/km2 Houston metro area[4]: 215/km2 Paris metro area[5]: 21,196/km2 London metro area[6]: 5,206/km2 Madrid metro area[7]: 1,267/km2 Instanbul metro area[8]: 2,593/km2 Or compare every urban area on the list in the UK[9] all of which have more than 2000 people per km2 and the list of the largest urban areas in Europe[10], again with 80% > 2000/km2--the top 10 > 5000/km2, with the largest urban areas in the US[11] where less than 5 have 2000+, and 95% have < 1500 people per km2. America may not have invented the suburbs, but we do them like nobody else because we have tons of space. I live in Austin, TX. I can get on the road and be in the countryside in under 30 minutes--real countryside with no buildings in sight. Can you even do that in the UK? France? I have family in St. Louis. If I drive there from Austin, that's 1300km. Largeish cities I would hit are Dallas and Springfield, MO. I could go from Rotterdam to Andorra with the same distance and pass through Antwerp, Paris, Orleans, Toulouse, etc. Even if we assumed the average American city is as dense as those in Europe (they aren't) we still have the fact that in most parts of America you have long stretches of empty freeway between major metro areas. Austin TX to Houston, for example, is a 260km (160mi). Atlanta, GA to anywhere of note is at least 160km(100mi). Even California: San Diago to LA, 160km(100mi); Sacramento to San Fransisco: 140km(90mi); San Fransisco to LA: almost 600 km. That's almost the same as London to Glasgow, and you traverse most of the UK. Further than Paris to Bordeaux, again you cross most of France. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_metropolitan_area [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_metropolitan_area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_metropolitan_area [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Houston http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Houston [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_commuter_belt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_commuter_belt [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid#Metropolitan_area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid#Metropolitan_area [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Unit... [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_urban_areas_of_the_European_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_urban_areas_of_the_Euro... [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_are...

madaxe 14y ago
>> Can you even do that in the UK? France? Yes, totally. I live in a city of just shy of a million people in the UK, and I can see the countryside from my desk in the middle of it. It's a 15 minute walk out of town. A big advantage of population density is that transportation is cheaper and you have less distance to travel to get out of the city - conversely in the US you have to drive through mile upon mile of suburban sprawl. A further counter-argument is that there are plenty of countries far, far emptier than the US (Kaz, Ukraine, Belarus), which retain high-density minimal-sprawl cities due to having been built either before the advent of the car, or since, but with a view to retaining accessibility for pedestrians, cyclists and public transport. Russia is sprawly, but they don't really do suburbs, they do massive industrial complexes on city outskirts, and have population centralised. Different strokes for different folks.