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I disagree that this type of article is merely an attempt to introduce negative engagement. Highlighting the problem so that we have this discussion is always i

by wilkie 14y ago

I disagree that this type of article is merely an attempt to introduce negative engagement. Highlighting the problem so that we have this discussion is always important. You may "let it go," as you say. That's fine. However, why do you expect others to also let it go? The point of this post to me is that if we don't take action or responsibility, the daughters of today will grow to write these posts themselves someday. It won't change unless we are honest and we put forth the effort to understand the environment and circumstance that leads us to write these articles. And we have, what, one of these posts a month? Can we really ignore them... and keep ignoring them? As a teacher, I admit that I don't share your ability to let others' circumstances not own any part of me. I do notice how these issues affect the women who chose to take my intro to programming course, or affect the lack, as it were. You just have to be active and look and ask for their experiences. When they come into office hours and ask questions they could have asked in class; I ask them why they didn't and more than one has answered "because I am shy." Could they all be shy? That's certainly an explanation. I could look the other way from then on and comment how odd it is that women are so shy. Can I rely on this being a biological answer? Are women, as opposed to men, then just not interested in tech? Can I be satisfied? Maybe most are good stopping right there. But the anecdote alone fails to placate my understanding. And yet, if I look, I find evidence of something... more... problematic. So, studies were done. Are women worse than men at math keeping them out of tech? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080724192258.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080724192258.ht... No. Are they less interested? Well, Sapna Cheryan's study of the stereotype threat in computer science is profound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYwI-qM20x4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYwI-qM20x4 So, their interest is very likely to be prejudiced. So, it seems the correlation is weak. Is there a systemic bias that goes against women? http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474.abstract http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474.abstract Apparently, yes. And I have a handful more that show this. Which is why I anonymize the homework I grade and why conference/journal review should be blind (http://blog.davewilkinsonii.com/posts/conference_diversity http://blog.davewilkinsonii.com/posts/conference_diversity). Attempting to explain the drop in participation of women since the 80s is very necessary. The fact that 13% of undergraduate CS degrees earned by women in 2010 (http://www.cra.org/resources/taulbee http://www.cra.org/resources/taulbee) is an increase is both terrible and a tad optimistic. Yet, before we get excited and say the problem is solved, here's the entire graph: http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/reports/spring07a.pdf http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/reports/spring07a.pdf In 2011, 57% of the entire workforce are women, 25% of computing workforce are women, around 9% of programmers are women. (http://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/legacy/pdf/BytheNumbers09.pdf http://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/legacy/pdf/BytheNum..., http://archive.aneventapart.com/alasurvey2011/01.html http://archive.aneventapart.com/alasurvey2011/01.html) So, we should be paying more attention, there is something wrong, and writing like the original post is part of that discussion and valuable. Also, please don't tell your kids that they should "ignore them and they will go away." That's not how you deal with bullies... that's how you become invisible.

elptacek 14y ago
Specifically, what I tell them is, "Would you give this person a $20 bill? Then don't give them anything more valuable, either." Note that I never once stated my opinion that there are or are not enough women|minorities|gays in technology. If you think that was my point, then my words flew past my meaning and landed in your begonias (this being my Greek tutor's euphemism for that thing that sometimes happens in translations). The original article is horribly polarizing and, I think, creates a hostile environment for the rest of us who aren't dressed for battle. We have two children. The eldest is male, the youngest is female. It is either the case that the teachers complain more about my daughter's stubbornness than my son's or that I bridle more at it. Either way, it does appear to me that she is being made to feel more shame for her innate mettle than my son ever has. Not all of the bullies she deals with are peers; some of them are teachers, school staff and other adults. As we all well know, a certain amount of subtlety is required in handling bullies in positions of authority. Often in the very least subtle way of "sit down and shut up and obey" -- effecting the least dire consequence, given the circumstance. I, too, have read studies that show women become more "shy" as they advance through secondary school, as a consequence of social pressure. Less of that pressure comes from peers than from adults. Reducing what I was trying to express to "ignore them and they will go away" has put the ball in the bleachers. Casting what I said into that ends the play. Nope. Very specifically, I'm trying to teach them the art of assessing the situation and deciding if there is any value at all in engaging versus walking away. But before I can do that, I have to teach them how to walk away, because their natural inclination seems to be to engage. My kids are growing up in a bubble that I did not grow up in. There's something about this bubble that slaps erroneous labels on problems. Some of the problems aren't even problems. This is where emily37's observation resonates: it's sabotage. We can't go through life saying, "I'm not welcome here because of attributes that are beyond my control."
- wilkie 14y ago
  > My kids are growing up in a bubble that I did not grow up in. There's something about this bubble that slaps erroneous labels on problems. Some of the problems aren't even problems. That's how you see it. They don't have to, and probably won't, see things the same way. Some of their problems might not be problems to you. > But before I can do that, I have to teach them how to walk away, because their natural inclination seems to be to engage. Let them engage! Let them both observe and be heard. They are very capable of coming to a conclusion. Your only role should be to ensure that they are heard, visible, and safe. Why would you first teach them to walk away? Why teach them that this form of engagement is negative? Inaction is valid, true, but we should not be afraid to act or suggest that some forms of aggression or anger are invalid. > Reducing what I was trying to express to "ignore them and they will go away" has put the ball in the bleachers. I got this message from this statement you made: > Rather I think of it as not letting other people's drama own any part of me. And that is what I think when anyone complains of anything, be it gender bias or racial bias or religious/political disagreement: nothing can own you unless you let it. Seems like a valid conclusion to make on my part. Be made out of rubber as though you can just brush off all forms of oppression. But, regardless of being made of rubber, an anchor tied to the waist can still sink you, perhaps regardless of what you do. It requires a collective change to reverse... something I believe your children can inspire. > We can't go through life saying, "I'm not welcome here because of attributes that are beyond my control." I wonder, in hesitation, just which attributes you speak of. Regardless, maybe... just maybe... they are within our collective control. The more these types of articles come out, regardless of your feelings that they be suppressed due to their negativity, the more positive discussions like ours will play out in front of your children's generation.

by wilkie 14y ago

elptacek 14y ago

Specifically, what I tell them is, "Would you give this person a $20 bill? Then don't give them anything more valuable, either." Note that I never once stated my opinion that there are or are not enough women|minorities|gays in technology. If you think that was my point, then my words flew past my meaning and landed in your begonias (this being my Greek tutor's euphemism for that thing that sometimes happens in translations). The original article is horribly polarizing and, I think, creates a hostile environment for the rest of us who aren't dressed for battle. We have two children. The eldest is male, the youngest is female. It is either the case that the teachers complain more about my daughter's stubbornness than my son's or that I bridle more at it. Either way, it does appear to me that she is being made to feel more shame for her innate mettle than my son ever has. Not all of the bullies she deals with are peers; some of them are teachers, school staff and other adults. As we all well know, a certain amount of subtlety is required in handling bullies in positions of authority. Often in the very least subtle way of "sit down and shut up and obey" -- effecting the least dire consequence, given the circumstance. I, too, have read studies that show women become more "shy" as they advance through secondary school, as a consequence of social pressure. Less of that pressure comes from peers than from adults. Reducing what I was trying to express to "ignore them and they will go away" has put the ball in the bleachers. Casting what I said into that ends the play. Nope. Very specifically, I'm trying to teach them the art of assessing the situation and deciding if there is any value at all in engaging versus walking away. But before I can do that, I have to teach them how to walk away, because their natural inclination seems to be to engage. My kids are growing up in a bubble that I did not grow up in. There's something about this bubble that slaps erroneous labels on problems. Some of the problems aren't even problems. This is where emily37's observation resonates: it's sabotage. We can't go through life saying, "I'm not welcome here because of attributes that are beyond my control."

wilkie 14y ago
> My kids are growing up in a bubble that I did not grow up in. There's something about this bubble that slaps erroneous labels on problems. Some of the problems aren't even problems. That's how you see it. They don't have to, and probably won't, see things the same way. Some of their problems might not be problems to you. > But before I can do that, I have to teach them how to walk away, because their natural inclination seems to be to engage. Let them engage! Let them both observe and be heard. They are very capable of coming to a conclusion. Your only role should be to ensure that they are heard, visible, and safe. Why would you first teach them to walk away? Why teach them that this form of engagement is negative? Inaction is valid, true, but we should not be afraid to act or suggest that some forms of aggression or anger are invalid. > Reducing what I was trying to express to "ignore them and they will go away" has put the ball in the bleachers. I got this message from this statement you made: > Rather I think of it as not letting other people's drama own any part of me. And that is what I think when anyone complains of anything, be it gender bias or racial bias or religious/political disagreement: nothing can own you unless you let it. Seems like a valid conclusion to make on my part. Be made out of rubber as though you can just brush off all forms of oppression. But, regardless of being made of rubber, an anchor tied to the waist can still sink you, perhaps regardless of what you do. It requires a collective change to reverse... something I believe your children can inspire. > We can't go through life saying, "I'm not welcome here because of attributes that are beyond my control." I wonder, in hesitation, just which attributes you speak of. Regardless, maybe... just maybe... they are within our collective control. The more these types of articles come out, regardless of your feelings that they be suppressed due to their negativity, the more positive discussions like ours will play out in front of your children's generation.