4 ms·

Good luck with emailing authors of papers which are 70 years old. In mathematics good results never outdate, so there is no rule of thumb "if it is still releva

by stared 14y ago

Good luck with emailing authors of papers which are 70 years old. In mathematics good results never outdate, so there is no rule of thumb "if it is still relevant, author must be still alive".

roel_v 14y ago
But those perennial papers are usually so widely spread that a simple google search will bring them up, or otherwise somebody in the department will have a copy on their hard disk; so finding it is as simple as asking 'hey who has xyz' on the internal mailing list. Maybe it's different in mathematics, I don't know, I'm just stating my experiences. Few fields are as long-lasting as mathematics, too, I think; in most fields, only a hand full of papers is still relevant after 20 years.
- stared 14y ago
  It isn't as simple, as a perennial paper in mathematics does not have to be even famous. It may have even not cites (yet). And I'm speaking of my experience (theoretical physics). Moreover, then you can hardly expect that one of a bunch of guys at your department has the paper. Sure, for applied (or even - experimental) sciences it is different.
  - roel_v 14y ago
    How would you know about a paper you don't have and doesn't have any cites and is 50 years old? How can a paper be perennial if it doesn't have any cites? A paper being perennial is, I'd argue, defined by getting cites on a regular basis even after many years. Who does theoretical physics / mathematics and doesn't have access to a university library? And don't say Ramanujan, people in those circumstances wouldn't have access to the internet, either.
    - wfn 14y ago
      I know of at least one person who is doing lots of science / scientific projects/experiments for themselves and does not have access via uni libraries etc. but needs to consult scientific literature (as in, academic papers) fairly often. (Granted, the case does not fall within the aforementioned 'theor.phys. / mathematics' field.) They use http://reddit.com/r/scholar http://reddit.com/r/scholar to ask for papers to be uploaded (it's a very nice and useful subreddit for those folk, I try to fill out some requests now and then). Of course, 'knowing one person' is anecdotal / talk about bad representative samples, but I can attest to the fact that those people exist. (I don't know the details why that person in question cannot register under a public library; public libraries may not have subscriptions to their journals of interest perhaps.) In any regard, there are cases where old theories / research were dug up by contemporary researchers who realized that those original models were useful for their modern research etc. [citation needed, could dig something up, but googling is probably more effective than asking in this case.]
      - roel_v 14y ago
        But he probably does it because it's just easier than getting a subscription to a university library. Proving my point exactly - how hard is it really to get access to academic papers? Most authors can't even find people that want to read their stuff. This whole 'I can't access research' is really 'there is no website where the 0.1% of people who don't have main stream and side stream access to journals can download them from'. Hardly the big threat to society it is sometimes made out to be. Let me state again that I too would sometimes prefer one huge easily accessible database with all articles ever published, along with cites and H-factors and objective impact factor rankings and a bookmarking/personal library feature and maybe a pony too. Then again, the magnitude of that problem is miniscule compared to other problems I have I'd much rather see solved, or spend my time on. And my experience says most of the people in my work field feel the same.
        wfn 14y ago
        I generally agree. At the same time, it's good to have tools for such edge cases - there are some papers in niche journals etc. which play a part in science but may not be easily attainable (again, because e.g. public libraries do not pay for subscriptions for those journals and whatnot.) But I agree with the gist of what you're saying (trying to come up with a universal user friendly system might be an overkill); but it is good to have these frustrations and debate in the open, and again, I really like that there is such a place as /r/scholar.
    - stared 14y ago
      > How would you know about a paper you don't have and doesn't have any cites and is 50 years old? Google Scholar? > How can a paper be perennial if it doesn't have any cites? It was a bit exaggerated. But _in mathematics_ typical span of citation accumulation is decades, not years. And typical total citation count is way lower than in, say, biology. > A paper being perennial is, I'd argue, defined by getting cites on a regular basis even after many years. No. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/perennial http://www.thefreedictionary.com/perennial Don't confuse it with "popular" or even "with lasting popularity". Again, in mathematics things (almost) do not age...
      - roel_v 14y ago
        "But _in mathematics_ typical span of citation accumulation is decades, not years. And typical total citation count is way lower than in, say, biology." Sure, I'll accept that. My point is that some people must have it apart from the archives of the university it was first published at. Again, I'm talking about the actual, practical issues here, not the "what might happen". Not to turn this into an ad hominem, but are you an academic? How often do you have real problems (as opposed to 'annoyed because I have to spend 15 minutes') finding the content of papers? "No. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/perennial http://www.thefreedictionary.com/perennial Don't confuse it with "popular" or even "with lasting popularity"." By that definition, anything written is perennial. In the context of a book/movie/paper being 'perennial', 'perennial' means 'still after a relatively long amount of time enjoys some form of popularity or following'. Just because a dictionary doesn't define it into that nuance, doesn't make it not true.
- sergiosgc 14y ago
  But, again, those that can ask on the mailing list, also have the university subscription to go through pay walls. People outside investigation groups are left outside the party. You are not making a convincing argument that papers are already "free enough". Unless you assume all interested parties are from the academic world, that is...
  - roel_v 14y ago
    "Unless you assume all interested parties are from the academic world, that is.." But seriously, how many people aren't? Yes yes there is always that one guy in his attic or log cabin... Most university libraries offer subscriptions to externals, too (mine does for less than 50 USD a year). So it's really only for people who are interested in academic materials, who are outside of any reach of a university (because really all you have to do is become member of a university library to get access to the electronic materials from the comfort of your own home). How many people fit that criterium? I'm arguing that overall, the problem is mostly in people's minds.
    - ImprovedSilence 14y ago
      I work in the private sector with no academic affiliations. I find I use various IEEE/scientific papers roughly once a month. Some companies are small, and won't pay for things like papers. Some companies are large and have crappy bureaucracies/"cost saving measures" for getting a $15 paper off the internet. I'm not saying I need it all to be free, because I do always end up with the paper I want, I'd just like to add an anecdote that it's not all academia. But you're mostly right, access is not too much of a problem.
    - kanzure 14y ago
      > Most university libraries offer subscriptions to externals, too (mine does for less than 50 USD a year). Can you show me one that does? You're saying as a non-institutionally affiliated individual, I can pay a university library $50/year and get access to papers? Please, which school offers this, or what search terms should I be using? please. times a googleplexamonium.

by stared 14y ago

Good luck with emailing authors of papers which are 70 years old. In mathematics good results never outdate, so there is no rule of thumb "if it is still relevant, author must be still alive".

roel_v 14y ago

But those perennial papers are usually so widely spread that a simple google search will bring them up, or otherwise somebody in the department will have a copy on their hard disk; so finding it is as simple as asking 'hey who has xyz' on the internal mailing list. Maybe it's different in mathematics, I don't know, I'm just stating my experiences. Few fields are as long-lasting as mathematics, too, I think; in most fields, only a hand full of papers is still relevant after 20 years.

stared 14y ago
It isn't as simple, as a perennial paper in mathematics does not have to be even famous. It may have even not cites (yet). And I'm speaking of my experience (theoretical physics). Moreover, then you can hardly expect that one of a bunch of guys at your department has the paper. Sure, for applied (or even - experimental) sciences it is different.
- roel_v 14y ago
  How would you know about a paper you don't have and doesn't have any cites and is 50 years old? How can a paper be perennial if it doesn't have any cites? A paper being perennial is, I'd argue, defined by getting cites on a regular basis even after many years. Who does theoretical physics / mathematics and doesn't have access to a university library? And don't say Ramanujan, people in those circumstances wouldn't have access to the internet, either.
  - wfn 14y ago
    I know of at least one person who is doing lots of science / scientific projects/experiments for themselves and does not have access via uni libraries etc. but needs to consult scientific literature (as in, academic papers) fairly often. (Granted, the case does not fall within the aforementioned 'theor.phys. / mathematics' field.) They use http://reddit.com/r/scholar http://reddit.com/r/scholar to ask for papers to be uploaded (it's a very nice and useful subreddit for those folk, I try to fill out some requests now and then). Of course, 'knowing one person' is anecdotal / talk about bad representative samples, but I can attest to the fact that those people exist. (I don't know the details why that person in question cannot register under a public library; public libraries may not have subscriptions to their journals of interest perhaps.) In any regard, there are cases where old theories / research were dug up by contemporary researchers who realized that those original models were useful for their modern research etc. [citation needed, could dig something up, but googling is probably more effective than asking in this case.]
    - roel_v 14y ago
      But he probably does it because it's just easier than getting a subscription to a university library. Proving my point exactly - how hard is it really to get access to academic papers? Most authors can't even find people that want to read their stuff. This whole 'I can't access research' is really 'there is no website where the 0.1% of people who don't have main stream and side stream access to journals can download them from'. Hardly the big threat to society it is sometimes made out to be. Let me state again that I too would sometimes prefer one huge easily accessible database with all articles ever published, along with cites and H-factors and objective impact factor rankings and a bookmarking/personal library feature and maybe a pony too. Then again, the magnitude of that problem is miniscule compared to other problems I have I'd much rather see solved, or spend my time on. And my experience says most of the people in my work field feel the same.
      - wfn 14y ago
        I generally agree. At the same time, it's good to have tools for such edge cases - there are some papers in niche journals etc. which play a part in science but may not be easily attainable (again, because e.g. public libraries do not pay for subscriptions for those journals and whatnot.) But I agree with the gist of what you're saying (trying to come up with a universal user friendly system might be an overkill); but it is good to have these frustrations and debate in the open, and again, I really like that there is such a place as /r/scholar.
  - stared 14y ago
    > How would you know about a paper you don't have and doesn't have any cites and is 50 years old? Google Scholar? > How can a paper be perennial if it doesn't have any cites? It was a bit exaggerated. But _in mathematics_ typical span of citation accumulation is decades, not years. And typical total citation count is way lower than in, say, biology. > A paper being perennial is, I'd argue, defined by getting cites on a regular basis even after many years. No. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/perennial http://www.thefreedictionary.com/perennial Don't confuse it with "popular" or even "with lasting popularity". Again, in mathematics things (almost) do not age...
    - roel_v 14y ago
      "But _in mathematics_ typical span of citation accumulation is decades, not years. And typical total citation count is way lower than in, say, biology." Sure, I'll accept that. My point is that some people must have it apart from the archives of the university it was first published at. Again, I'm talking about the actual, practical issues here, not the "what might happen". Not to turn this into an ad hominem, but are you an academic? How often do you have real problems (as opposed to 'annoyed because I have to spend 15 minutes') finding the content of papers? "No. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/perennial http://www.thefreedictionary.com/perennial Don't confuse it with "popular" or even "with lasting popularity"." By that definition, anything written is perennial. In the context of a book/movie/paper being 'perennial', 'perennial' means 'still after a relatively long amount of time enjoys some form of popularity or following'. Just because a dictionary doesn't define it into that nuance, doesn't make it not true.
sergiosgc 14y ago
But, again, those that can ask on the mailing list, also have the university subscription to go through pay walls. People outside investigation groups are left outside the party. You are not making a convincing argument that papers are already "free enough". Unless you assume all interested parties are from the academic world, that is...
- roel_v 14y ago
  "Unless you assume all interested parties are from the academic world, that is.." But seriously, how many people aren't? Yes yes there is always that one guy in his attic or log cabin... Most university libraries offer subscriptions to externals, too (mine does for less than 50 USD a year). So it's really only for people who are interested in academic materials, who are outside of any reach of a university (because really all you have to do is become member of a university library to get access to the electronic materials from the comfort of your own home). How many people fit that criterium? I'm arguing that overall, the problem is mostly in people's minds.
  - ImprovedSilence 14y ago
    I work in the private sector with no academic affiliations. I find I use various IEEE/scientific papers roughly once a month. Some companies are small, and won't pay for things like papers. Some companies are large and have crappy bureaucracies/"cost saving measures" for getting a $15 paper off the internet. I'm not saying I need it all to be free, because I do always end up with the paper I want, I'd just like to add an anecdote that it's not all academia. But you're mostly right, access is not too much of a problem.
  - kanzure 14y ago
    > Most university libraries offer subscriptions to externals, too (mine does for less than 50 USD a year). Can you show me one that does? You're saying as a non-institutionally affiliated individual, I can pay a university library $50/year and get access to papers? Please, which school offers this, or what search terms should I be using? please. times a googleplexamonium.