4 ms·

Opera was actually strict pro-standard.. sometimes for their own bad. Possibly. But they're also the only browser I'm aware of apart from IE that supports "do

Opera was actually strict pro-standard.. sometimes for their own bad. Possibly. But they're also the only browser I'm aware of apart from IE that supports "document.all". And (at least as of 2007), they were still using IE's quirks mode box model if you didn't specify a doctype. As I said, they did a good job of trying to please everybody. You could code for Firefox or IE and have a reasonable expectation that it would work on Opera too. That's a good thing, by the way.

tripzilch 14y ago
What do you mean, "possibly"? Either you agree that Opera implemented standards as strictly as possible (really the only way when you your own rendering engine with such a small market share) while aiming for compatibility at the same time (which is implemented by copying certain quirks--and O isn't the only one that does that--as well as having a large database of popular sites that are fixed with bits of custom JS), or you disagree that Opera aimed and successfully did implement web standards (which is provably false). Saying "possibly" makes it sound like you don't really know. Did you consider, while typing that remark about the downvotes (bad form, and doesn't add anything to the discussion, except for polarizing it even more), that it might actually be caused by your self-admitted lack of knowledge on the subject? Sure thing, those people may be "Opera devotees", because those are the people that know what they're talking about maybe? You claim that top post was "not actually an anti-Opera comment". What about your remark that "They'll continue to be the browser that nobody cares about"? That was you baiting all of those European and Russian Opera users, that you may or may not have noticed are also here on HN. If you had said "the browser nobody in the US actually cares about" then yes, I could not have disagreed. But this general claim is a tad ignorant, the global 1.3% market share is not at all geographically evenly spread, and goes up to 47% in certain countries. That's a long shot from saying nobody cares about it. (BTW I may be an Opera devotee--a little bit less than I was a few years ago though--but I'm not downvoting you)
- benihana 14y ago
  >What do you mean, "possibly"? I'm guessing OP meant possibly for the "sometimes for their own bad" part of the comment.
- blablabla123 14y ago
  >Either you agree that Opera implemented standards as strictly as possible (really the only way when you your own rendering engine with such a small market share) while aiming for compatibility at the same time Noble aim but that doesn't work in the consumer world. I am pretty open-minded, so I am seriously trying to use Opera every 2 or 3 years. And each time I really start to enjoy using it but after one or two days I get horribly disappointed: a significant number of websites I like just doesn't work. Not just loss in function, they are completely unusuable, for instance I get a white page. Last time I did this try is probably 2 years ago. Last time I observed this behaviour with another non-IE-browser: at least 5 years ago, probably more like 8. There was a time when certain websites only worked with IE. Somehow Mozilla and friends adapted... but what happened to Opera? I cannot stop thinking that Opera somehow got stuck in the 90s. They are certainly innovative, they were the CSS pioneers, everybody copied tabs and other cool features. But still... When your rendering is incompatible to the real world, nobody will use you. So I can only agree: smart move. Maybe this will make Opera a serious competitor in the Browser market again. Anyway, I also agree, Opera still has a user base. I work on an in-house tool and we have users using Opera, so I test against it.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    > Noble aim but that doesn't work in the consumer world. I am pretty open-minded, so I am seriously trying to use Opera every 2 or 3 years. And each time I really start to enjoy using it but after one or two days I get horribly disappointed: a significant number of websites I like just doesn't work. Not just loss in function, they are completely unusuable, for instance I get a white page. You're saying that's the fault of Opera when it's possibly the fault of lazy devs. You used to (still have?) devs testing for Opera and then preventing users going any further. Users would spoof the agent id string. So then devs started doing more tests, and rejecting Opera. (https://groups.google.com/group/alt.sysadmin.recovery/tree/browse_frm/month/2003-01/7e6d6a94db0c84bb?rnum=161&_done=%2Fgroup%2Falt.sysadmin.recovery%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2003-01%3F https://groups.google.com/group/alt.sysadmin.recovery/tree/b...)
    - blablabla123 14y ago
jgraham 14y ago
All browsers support document.all; see [1]. It is true that Opera tried to reverse engineer more of the IE DOM than most others, for example we were the only ones to have attachEvent and friends. But in recent years that caused problems with sites that made false equivalences like "has attachEvent -> must be IE" and so non-standard features were being actively removed. It is also true that Opera has been heavily involved in the standards process; both in codifying the legacy and in more forward-looking initiatives to add novel functionality to the platform. For example Hixie was working at Opera when he started work on what became HTML5. Opera's Simon Pieters wrote a spec for CSS quirks mode [2]. We have also been involved in numerous other specs, and in the beginnings of the effort to produce a comprehensive vendor-neutral testsuite for web platform technologies. [1] http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2099 http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/... [2] http://quirks.spec.whatwg.org/ http://quirks.spec.whatwg.org/
- yuhong 14y ago
  Yea, it is unfortunate that Netscape "Mariner", which was also going to support DOM level 1, got cancelled.

tripzilch 14y ago

What do you mean, "possibly"? Either you agree that Opera implemented standards as strictly as possible (really the only way when you your own rendering engine with such a small market share) while aiming for compatibility at the same time (which is implemented by copying certain quirks--and O isn't the only one that does that--as well as having a large database of popular sites that are fixed with bits of custom JS), or you disagree that Opera aimed and successfully did implement web standards (which is provably false). Saying "possibly" makes it sound like you don't really know. Did you consider, while typing that remark about the downvotes (bad form, and doesn't add anything to the discussion, except for polarizing it even more), that it might actually be caused by your self-admitted lack of knowledge on the subject? Sure thing, those people may be "Opera devotees", because those are the people that know what they're talking about maybe? You claim that top post was "not actually an anti-Opera comment". What about your remark that "They'll continue to be the browser that nobody cares about"? That was you baiting all of those European and Russian Opera users, that you may or may not have noticed are also here on HN. If you had said "the browser nobody in the US actually cares about" then yes, I could not have disagreed. But this general claim is a tad ignorant, the global 1.3% market share is not at all geographically evenly spread, and goes up to 47% in certain countries. That's a long shot from saying nobody cares about it. (BTW I may be an Opera devotee--a little bit less than I was a few years ago though--but I'm not downvoting you)

benihana 14y ago
>What do you mean, "possibly"? I'm guessing OP meant possibly for the "sometimes for their own bad" part of the comment.
blablabla123 14y ago
>Either you agree that Opera implemented standards as strictly as possible (really the only way when you your own rendering engine with such a small market share) while aiming for compatibility at the same time Noble aim but that doesn't work in the consumer world. I am pretty open-minded, so I am seriously trying to use Opera every 2 or 3 years. And each time I really start to enjoy using it but after one or two days I get horribly disappointed: a significant number of websites I like just doesn't work. Not just loss in function, they are completely unusuable, for instance I get a white page. Last time I did this try is probably 2 years ago. Last time I observed this behaviour with another non-IE-browser: at least 5 years ago, probably more like 8. There was a time when certain websites only worked with IE. Somehow Mozilla and friends adapted... but what happened to Opera? I cannot stop thinking that Opera somehow got stuck in the 90s. They are certainly innovative, they were the CSS pioneers, everybody copied tabs and other cool features. But still... When your rendering is incompatible to the real world, nobody will use you. So I can only agree: smart move. Maybe this will make Opera a serious competitor in the Browser market again. Anyway, I also agree, Opera still has a user base. I work on an in-house tool and we have users using Opera, so I test against it.
- DanBC 14y ago
  > Noble aim but that doesn't work in the consumer world. I am pretty open-minded, so I am seriously trying to use Opera every 2 or 3 years. And each time I really start to enjoy using it but after one or two days I get horribly disappointed: a significant number of websites I like just doesn't work. Not just loss in function, they are completely unusuable, for instance I get a white page. You're saying that's the fault of Opera when it's possibly the fault of lazy devs. You used to (still have?) devs testing for Opera and then preventing users going any further. Users would spoof the agent id string. So then devs started doing more tests, and rejecting Opera. (https://groups.google.com/group/alt.sysadmin.recovery/tree/browse_frm/month/2003-01/7e6d6a94db0c84bb?rnum=161&_done=%2Fgroup%2Falt.sysadmin.recovery%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2003-01%3F https://groups.google.com/group/alt.sysadmin.recovery/tree/b...)
  - blablabla123 14y ago

jgraham 14y ago

All browsers support document.all; see [1]. It is true that Opera tried to reverse engineer more of the IE DOM than most others, for example we were the only ones to have attachEvent and friends. But in recent years that caused problems with sites that made false equivalences like "has attachEvent -> must be IE" and so non-standard features were being actively removed. It is also true that Opera has been heavily involved in the standards process; both in codifying the legacy and in more forward-looking initiatives to add novel functionality to the platform. For example Hixie was working at Opera when he started work on what became HTML5. Opera's Simon Pieters wrote a spec for CSS quirks mode [2]. We have also been involved in numerous other specs, and in the beginnings of the effort to produce a comprehensive vendor-neutral testsuite for web platform technologies. [1] http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2099 http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/... [2] http://quirks.spec.whatwg.org/ http://quirks.spec.whatwg.org/

yuhong 14y ago
Yea, it is unfortunate that Netscape "Mariner", which was also going to support DOM level 1, got cancelled.