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One more thing. And this is the idea that helped explain how this stuff worked. If a school's admitting X kids, you have to completely forget about that numbe

One more thing. And this is the idea that helped explain how this stuff worked. If a school's admitting X kids, you have to completely forget about that number. That number is meaningless. There's a certain percentage of X that's just spoken for. There are kids you have to admit to keep the school running and to meet all its institutional needs. Once you figure out how many kids that is, subtract that from the number of kids you're supposedly admitting. THAT number is your actual class size, the number of kids who get admitted by the full process, being pitted against one another. I found my job made a lot more sense once I told myself I was working to admit X-Y kids rather than just X kids. So when you hear about how low the admission rates are, realize that in reality, they're significantly lower due to so many spots being claimed in each class by legacies, minorities, athletes, geniuses, politicians kids, potential big donors etc. These kids don't face the same process as everyone else.

wallflower 18y ago
I'd be curious what you think about some NYC Upper East Side parents who think getting into the right pre-school determines the fate of their progeny for getting into an Ivy League..
- brandnewlow 18y ago
  It's all relative. Those kids are competing against eachother, not me from podunk Michigan. So it's an arms race. If the kid across the street goes to fancy pre-school, he's going to get advantages you'll miss out on that will put him ahead of the game. I just read Gladwell's "Outliers" this week and he talks at length about this very thing. Here's how he puts it. If you're in Canada and you were born just days after the cut-off for age group hockey, then when you're 10, you'll be 6-7 months older than a lot of the other kids on your team. That makes a big difference at that age. So you'll make the traveling team and the younger kids won't. On the traveling team, you get better coaches, better equipment, better opponents. So the gap between you and those other kids gets A LOT wider. Five years later, you're maybe looking at the NHL while those other kids are sitting in the stands, because you got access to the better coaches, because you were born 6 months before them. That's why the parents want to get their kids into the fancy pre-schools. Outliers is an excellent book. Much, much better than "Blink," which I thought was kind of boring.
  - unalone 18y ago
    I might look into buying Outliers. Part of Gladwell's writing style has started to grate on me, but at that recommendation I suppose it's worth checking out?
    - ardit33 18y ago
      yes it is worth it. i am reading it right now. I was skeptical at first, as I find books like this pretty shallow (like Freakonomics), but this one is actually good, and backed by real data in many of his points. Especially the hockey players one. The data is right there, the elephant in the room nobody really noticed it. I have had this saying: You like what are you good at, and you become good at what you like. When you start an activity/sport or something like chess at an early age, the differences between you and other kids are minor, and if you have even a small 2%-5% edge, you end up winning. And you endup liking it, and work/study/practice harder on that, and you end up really good at it later on, and your performance will be a magnitude better from those kids that were only little bit behind you. And in sports the day you were born is very important. I guess the school you go (elementary/middle school) is very important too.
    - neilk 18y ago
      This is his best book by far. The prose style is pretty much the same, but he's got a more coherent story to tell, so you might find it less grating.
      - brandnewlow 18y ago
        Yes. Gladwell likes to describe his books as intellectual adventure stories. I thought he finally delivered on the promise in Outliers. The chapter about why commercial airliners crash was actually kind of gripping. The chapter about how a moment of "evil" led to the destiny of his family changing was actually kind of moving.
    - trjordan 18y ago
      I just finished reading it as well. He plays the same abusive games with stats and data that he does in his other books ("science by anecdote", if you will), but it's still a good read. There's a lot to be said for talent and hard work, but there's even more to be said about circumstance.
unalone 18y ago
Wow! That's fascinating (and much more detailed a response than I imagined: thank you)! I never thought there was more of a process than just looking quickly at lots of resumes. That process seems incredibly complex - but I'd imagine it helps select people to some degree when there're so many great people to pick from.
niels_olson 18y ago
How to estimate Y?
- brandnewlow 18y ago
  Ha! Trade secret. But think about what institutions a school would want to keep around. How big's their sports program? Music program? Legacy admissions?

wallflower 18y ago

I'd be curious what you think about some NYC Upper East Side parents who think getting into the right pre-school determines the fate of their progeny for getting into an Ivy League..

brandnewlow 18y ago
It's all relative. Those kids are competing against eachother, not me from podunk Michigan. So it's an arms race. If the kid across the street goes to fancy pre-school, he's going to get advantages you'll miss out on that will put him ahead of the game. I just read Gladwell's "Outliers" this week and he talks at length about this very thing. Here's how he puts it. If you're in Canada and you were born just days after the cut-off for age group hockey, then when you're 10, you'll be 6-7 months older than a lot of the other kids on your team. That makes a big difference at that age. So you'll make the traveling team and the younger kids won't. On the traveling team, you get better coaches, better equipment, better opponents. So the gap between you and those other kids gets A LOT wider. Five years later, you're maybe looking at the NHL while those other kids are sitting in the stands, because you got access to the better coaches, because you were born 6 months before them. That's why the parents want to get their kids into the fancy pre-schools. Outliers is an excellent book. Much, much better than "Blink," which I thought was kind of boring.
- unalone 18y ago
  I might look into buying Outliers. Part of Gladwell's writing style has started to grate on me, but at that recommendation I suppose it's worth checking out?
  - ardit33 18y ago
    yes it is worth it. i am reading it right now. I was skeptical at first, as I find books like this pretty shallow (like Freakonomics), but this one is actually good, and backed by real data in many of his points. Especially the hockey players one. The data is right there, the elephant in the room nobody really noticed it. I have had this saying: You like what are you good at, and you become good at what you like. When you start an activity/sport or something like chess at an early age, the differences between you and other kids are minor, and if you have even a small 2%-5% edge, you end up winning. And you endup liking it, and work/study/practice harder on that, and you end up really good at it later on, and your performance will be a magnitude better from those kids that were only little bit behind you. And in sports the day you were born is very important. I guess the school you go (elementary/middle school) is very important too.
  - neilk 18y ago
    This is his best book by far. The prose style is pretty much the same, but he's got a more coherent story to tell, so you might find it less grating.
    - brandnewlow 18y ago
      Yes. Gladwell likes to describe his books as intellectual adventure stories. I thought he finally delivered on the promise in Outliers. The chapter about why commercial airliners crash was actually kind of gripping. The chapter about how a moment of "evil" led to the destiny of his family changing was actually kind of moving.
  - trjordan 18y ago
    I just finished reading it as well. He plays the same abusive games with stats and data that he does in his other books ("science by anecdote", if you will), but it's still a good read. There's a lot to be said for talent and hard work, but there's even more to be said about circumstance.

unalone 18y ago

Wow! That's fascinating (and much more detailed a response than I imagined: thank you)! I never thought there was more of a process than just looking quickly at lots of resumes. That process seems incredibly complex - but I'd imagine it helps select people to some degree when there're so many great people to pick from.

niels_olson 18y ago

How to estimate Y?

brandnewlow 18y ago
Ha! Trade secret. But think about what institutions a school would want to keep around. How big's their sports program? Music program? Legacy admissions?