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Massive Dosing - the LSD Thumbprint
- rdl 14y agoI wonder if there is some plausible medical research which could justify 20-50mg LSD doses.
- DanBC 14y agoIn 1962 a scientist gave an elephant LSD. Unfortunately they got the dosing very wrong and gave the animal a massive overdose. The elephant died. (http://scienceblogs.com/retrospectacle/2007/05/30/science-vault-how-much-lsd-doe-1/ http://scienceblogs.com/retrospectacle/2007/05/30/science-va...)
- duaneb 14y agoI was not even aware it was possible to OD on LSD.... and the article does not do a good job of convincing me the original people who administered the drugs were not complete morons. I mean, who just guesses a dosage without ramping up the dose when nothing is known about the drug's interaction with elephant physiology?
- wfn 14y agoIf I recall the story correctly, they gave the elephant other drugs, too (to counter the effects of LSD after some hours/time into the experiment), and some of those countering drugs had associated known LD-50 (probably not measured for elephants, though..) - would need to reread the original text.
- swombat 14y agoYes, I don't have a link to the original article, but iirc they gave the elephant a gigantic dose compared to its body weight (the amount needed per kg of body weight goes down dramatically as body weight increases). The elephant started having what looked like seizures (faire enough, after basically eating the human equivalent of a full thimble of LSD), so they gave it a whole bunch of other drugs to try and stop the seizure. Then other things happened, so they gave it more drugs... etc.
- rdl 14y agoIt seems more plausible that they hated elephants rather than wanted to do science.
- robbiep 14y agoThese are interesting: http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v07n3/07318fis.html http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v07n3/07318fis.html http://www.neurodiversity.com/library_bender_1966.html http://www.neurodiversity.com/library_bender_1966.html http://www.neurodiversity.com/library_freedman_1962.html http://www.neurodiversity.com/library_freedman_1962.html The first one perhaps moreso with its relatively extensive case series. these are all studies of LSD in children for psychosis or autism
- conformal 14y agoi spent a couple hours talking to a guy who had supposedly done approximately 60 mg print back in the day. one component i didn't see in this blog post was what he described as "A PIERCING WHITE LIGHT". :)
- lucisferre 14y ago60mg seems like it would kill someone.
- virtualwhys 14y agoApparently Aldous Huxley's wife injected him with a lethal dose of LSD -- heroic-dosed directly into this
- michaelochurch 14y agoHis dose was 100 micrograms IM. That's nowhere near lethal for an oral dose.
- rosser 14y agoShe actually gave him two 100μg intramuscular doses on his deathbed, spaced several hours apart. http://www.lettersofnote.com/2010/03/most-beautiful-death.html http://www.lettersofnote.com/2010/03/most-beautiful-death.ht...
- dylanhassinger 14y agoI wonder if Steve Jobs went out the same way. The quotes of his final moments sound like he was tripping off _something_
- swombat 14y agoDeath seems like a pretty mind-blowing trip without any drugs required.
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- jpdoctor 14y agoI note that "It's like tripping your balls off on LSD" is missing from the list. But, funny thing: It's the most accurate. Instead you get a bunch of gobbledygook about death, eternity, and direct messages from god. The fact that you might just be having an episode of impaired cognition does not actually enter your brain. Let's not make this more complicated than it is.
- programnature 14y agoAll spiritual experiences sound like gobbledygook to those who have never had a spiritual experience. That they are beyond rational explanation is a feature, not a bug.
- mistercow 14y agoThey aren't beyond rational explanation. We may not have models that can predict and explain this qualitative phenomena, but I end this sentence with a resounding "yet".
- omarchowdhury 14y agoDon't mistake the finger pointing to the moon for the moon.
- flatline 14y agoThere is no finger. There is no moon. This is the fundamental Zen breakdown of the problem, at least. In Theravadan buddhism, the self is like a stick hut standing in a field: you can break it down and deconstruct it stick by stick, and thereby attain Buddhahood. In Zen, there is no hut. You are Buddha, right here and now.
- virtualwhys 14y agoRight here, right now, what is Buddha? The Zen "approach" cannot be explained, much like the teachings of Krishnamurti or Ramana Maharshi, or, as in the case of this thread, the psychedelic experience, or, as in the case of this life, oneself.
- oijaf888 14y agoTry reading this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008DZEWF8 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008DZEWF8 for another point of view on LSD and the impact it has.
- michaelochurch 14y agoI tend to think of these things as karmic accelerators. The karma that would usually ripen over 2 years is, instead, experienced in 12 hours. If that karma is negative, that might take the form of an immediate psychotic crisis instead of some longer-to-unfold variety that might, due to time, be more manageable. My personal belief is that, moreso than any religious belief, it's important to manage the karma we experience-- to learn from the bad, and not to turn the good into bad by becoming hubristic. Negative karma will ripen, and the important thing to do is to let it do so in a way that doesn't turn into recursive negativity that generates more bad karma (either for oneself, or in negative actions toward others). What bothers me about these drugs is that they seem to take away some of that ability to manage the karma that comes through. You experience a lot of sudden karmic ripening, which is interesting, but the insight that needs to develop over time isn't there for a lot of people, and those I've met who I think could use those drugs effectively (rather than haphazardly) often have no interest. I've been very unimpressed by most of the drug mystics I've met, because most tend to be sophomoric and unbalanced. I'd rather talk to a zen master any day of the week. Personally, I'm not interested in using these drugs at this point in my life, but I don't think they should be illegal or as stigmatized (in the larger society) as they are. They're probably less dangerous than alcohol. The problem is that, if you choose to use these drugs, you're trying out a technology that's still in the very early experimental stages, mostly because the research has been (wrongly, I would argue) outlawed.
- bloaf 14y agoI have always thought LSD works in this way: Your brain gets data, and has models of how all the data fits together. For example, if you look at someone you don't know, your brain will get the data "appearance" and plug it into the model "assorted stereotypes" and get out some expectations about who that stranger is. What LSD does is perturb those models of how data fits together. If your models are in line with reality, you don't have much to worry about. After your trip, everything will settle back to about where it was before. If, however, your models are out of whack (e.g. you blame others for failures that are your own fault) then you run the risk of having some really really unpleasant realizations while you're looking at the data without your old model mucking things up.
- batgaijin 14y agoI remember finding this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uFzhEDdexc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uFzhEDdexc when I read that article
- DaniFong 14y agoThis doesn't seem like a good idea.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- nwh 14y agoIf nothing else, that's needlessly expensive.
- singular 14y ago'It's not possible to describe what it's like. Except maybe DEATH.' I know I'm going to be downvoted into oblivion, but I have to link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkFyGNjaQ8k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkFyGNjaQ8k. /reddit-style
- rosser 14y agoThat sounds vaguely like some of my experiences with ayahuasca.
- lucisferre 14y agoI wonder if intelligent machines will infect themselves with severely disruptive but temporary algorithms (viruses) and believe they too understand the meaning of life the universe and everything.
- cookingrobot 14y agoA better analogy might be giving the machine a quick peek at it's debugger.
- compee 14y agoSo would life be nothing more than universally good local viruses within the universe?
- javajosh 14y agoHeh. Almost certainly, assuming that they have an analogue to "the pleasure of knowing" - a pleasure center that drugs like LSD seem to stimulate quite a lot (based on written texts like this). There is also, of course, "the pleasure of change", which probably really does have some good effects on cognition, assuming that it is real. To truly change one must become detached from the self, and most wise people believe that to be a Good Idea. (Which brings up the interesting possibility of irrational attachment in artificial minds. I can easily imagine a panicked piece of software saying "No! Don't transfer me to that piece of silicon. This piece is me!" :)
- klutometis 14y agoThat sort of thing might be similar to stochastic methods like simulated annealing, where one accepts temporarily suboptimal states in case a more optimal one is around the corner. Let psychedelics be analogous to the random walk: it may be the case that one finds oneself shaken from some local optimum only to be banished to a desert of suboptimal states and no deterministic way to return.
- the_decider 14y agoHey guys, with your cynical, snide comments...What would Steve Jobs do?...Not that I condone drug use, but...at least some guys have the guts to push their limits...for better or worse.
- throwawayaccnt4 14y ago"What would Steve Jobs do?" try to treat his pancreatic cancer first with a juice/vegan diet rather than conventional medicine, possibly shortening his lifespan by years?
- springishere 14y agoThis kind of thing seems, unwise, to say the least. If you value your brain functioning the way it does now, do not even think about this kind of thing. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against psychedelics, but this is not healthy and is unsafe for your brain. Most people who take a thumbprint never REALLY come back to their old selves. If you want a little psychedelic therapy session, just eat some fungus you can find in the forest. It's natural, rarely dangerous, It'll teach you a lot, but it won't permanently change you unless you want it to.
- michaelochurch 14y agojust eat some fungus you can find in the forest. It's natural, rarely dangerous, It'll teach you a lot, but it won't permanently change you unless you want it to. If you don't know what you're eating, that's very dangerous. Foraging mushrooms without knowing what they are is a terrible idea, because some are deadly. (I don't think that's what you meant, but in the rural US there are people who forage mushrooms, both for food and drug purposes. It's an awful idea if you don't know what you're doing.)
- virtualwhys 14y agocow patty shrooms: wash, boil water, make tea, take a walk, sit.
- orasis 14y agoAn insane and incredible book that I highly recommend reading is "A Heart Blown Open", the autobiography of a crazy Zen master / LSD manufacturer Jun Po Denis Kelly. Its the most unreal life I have ever come across. http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Blown-Open-Practice-Master/dp/1611250080 http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Blown-Open-Practice-Master/dp/16...
- sk5t 14y agoI don't understand the negativity in this thread... haven't taken LSD myself, but Steve Jobs was a fairly smart individual, and described taking LSD as a profoundly important action in his life. Perhaps there's something to it beyond the ramblings of "burn-outs" and "hippies."
- michaelochurch 14y agoI won't get into what I've done and haven't (real name) but it's not negativity so much as caution. First, spiritual experiences are hard to describe but I'm not impressed by people who claim to have had profound experiences. People will also claim profundity out of the "drugs" of the bourgeois nincompoops-- power and money-- because the thrill of power is profound to a typical vapid nincompoop. That's the fundamental problem with drugs: the upsides are subjective and personal-- that doesn't mean they aren't real-- while the downsides are often visible and awful. Is LSD evil? No. Is there "something to it"? Yes. In fact, there was a lot of good research being done on these drugs until the 1960s, when they were (improperly) listed as Schedule I, meaning they have no medical value (which is not true). Should it be stigmatized? No, a lot of great people (not just "burnouts") have done it. Is it dangerous? Yes, it is. Can LSD be spiritual for some people? Yes. Do you need psychedelics to be spiritual or to have spiritual experiences? No, absolutely not. If you choose to use these drugs, you're doing something that society knows very little about. You're experimenting with stuff about which our knowledge is in its infancy. Because society doesn't know enough about these drugs, it fears them, hence the stigma. That also means that if things go wrong for you, you will get no sympathy from the vast majority of people.
- cloverich 14y agoIts just that burn outs and hippies are the ones to both do it the most and talk about it the most. But many people can think of something in there life that resulted in a complete change in the way they think - about some thing. Death of a loved one, some traumatic experience. Growing up, having kids, falling in love. Whatever. We naturally hate to think something as emotional or meaningful as those events could be compared to a simple drug, but at the end of the day, anything and everything you think and feel is the result of a chemical reaction. Is it so far flung to think that some other chemical reaction may lead to insightful experiences?
- smosher 14y agoI have met only one person who has taken such an amount. He has permanent tunnel vision as a result, so I find myself suspicious. Certainly not a practice I would recommend.
- javajosh 14y agoWell, shit. A thumbprint is pretty intense, but you haven't really done LSD unless you've done a handprint. With both hands. You pass through death and eternity to become LISP.
- dhimes 14y agoNaw, man, you gotta do lines. Only then can you become a qubit.
- oneggshells 14y agoBrian Wilson explains rather well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d45F7PqxxY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d45F7PqxxY
- tytyty 14y agoI take psychedelics on a regular basis. Usually a couple of times a month. Although I've done several hundred micrograms (there is really no way of knowing) of LSD at once, I also really enjoy experimenting with smaller doses and casually micro-dosing on work days. I happen to be a software engineer and try to apply my knowledge of "machines" to the psychedelic experience. While I don't believe in anything supernatural, I do think that there might be a chance that psychedelics, especially LSD, help your consciousness tap into some deeper abstractions of the human mind, maybe even the universe. Let me explain that insane claim as best I can: There is a great book on psychology that was published recently called: Thinking Fast and Slow. In summary, it goes into great detail about two systems of the human mind. System 1, the immediate reaction system, and system 2 which is responsible for computing and solving problems. When your brain is in system 2 mode (solve 17 x 54 in your head) your heart rate increases, your pupils dilate, and your brain starts consuming glucose. It's doing work. System 1 is the trained mind that recognizes facial gestures and stuff infinitely more complex than a simple math equation. It reacts to danger before you are consciously aware of danger. I would speculate that LSD turns on System 2 where normally my System 1 brain would give me an immediate response. Your mind starts processing information differently. This cascades into an incredible effect on your emotional awareness, creativity, introspection, insights, and behaviors both physical and cognitive. I wonder if these extreme doses of LSD eliminate your minds ability to process normal sensory input. What you're left with are low level systems. You're self-awareness is turned off, but you are left with cognitive factories still churning away. Imagine something sad that happened to you once. Now imagine the visual component is gone, the memory of language gone. You're left with the actual chemical response of the memory. Now do the inverse for something positive. That's what ego-loss is like. You're swimming in a sea of emotions as your brain randomly wanders off into different states, sometimes many at once, sometimes you get stuck in one. Sometimes that state is incredible panic, sometimes you're crying-laughing for 10 minutes straight. This is a common experience I've had on measly 300-500ug doses. As for the universe claim, as far fetched as it sounds, maybe some of these systems are abstractions of the universal systems. What we are perceiving in these insane states are also little clues into how the universe organizes itself and a peek at something pre-selfawareness. That last paragraph is all bull-shit heresy but even with my lighter doses I've had remarkable insights. Things that have changed my life in incredible ways. It's like a Pi of molecules or some shit. edit: grammar
- fumar 14y agoLSD is an intense drug that alters ones brain chemistry. We are those neurons and synapses. When they change, we change. LSD will alter one's perspectives. Maybe the correct statement is, add more perspectives.
- cthrowaway2 14y agowe are neurons and synapses? is it not perhaps the case that neurons and synapses are simply arbitrary inputs into our true selves? which, like any input, could be configured, removed, or entirely replaced.
- nilved 14y agoYep, we are. No, that's not the case.
- omarchowdhury 14y agoWell that just settles it. Thank you.
- cthrowaway2 14y agoi didn't realize we were so intimately familiar with the source of human consciousness. i'd think, if our consciousness was conclusively just the sum of our synapses, we'd have stopped debating life after death by now. i'd be happy to read more if you care to source.
- tb303 14y agoI often think that Steve Jobs' biography is the worst thing that has happened to enlightenment, and the methods we seek in achieving it, in modern culture. This was a great read. Thanks for sharing it. It's a shame the responses are overwhelmingly arrogant and myopic/naive. You don't know what you don't know, especially when it comes to the individual perception of others.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- wfn 14y agoSomehow I cringe when entertaining the thought that there might be some open-minded HNers for whom it just so transpired that one of the first pieces of text on LSD chanced upon happened to be this. If it mere me, I'd probably remain unchanged after reading something which was written by someone who simply happens not to share many of the conceptual tools / words / concepts I presently have. I would instead recommend reading Albert Hofmann's original accounts of how he came to discover and to sample LSD for the first time; his was a very measured (though his very first experience was unexpected and therefore somewhat peculiar), delicate and elegant approach to discovering the molecule's effects; a scientist with an open mind - that read stirred quite a few things in me! A good read / book by any measure. http://www.maps.org/books/mpc/chapter1.html http://www.maps.org/books/mpc/chapter1.html edit - wanted to add that the book in question also includes early accounts of other researchers, psychiatrists, etc. - for a quick read, see e.g. this account in particular: http://www.maps.org/books/mpc/chapter4.html http://www.maps.org/books/mpc/chapter4.html
- cnp 14y agoFor anyone who is curious (or skeptical) about the incredible potential for psychedelic use in a therapeutic setting, I highly recommend this read: http://www.salon.com/2011/09/28/the_new_lsd_cure/ http://www.salon.com/2011/09/28/the_new_lsd_cure/ Probably the best general article I've read on the subject in recent times; it's also very hopeful.
- erock 14y agoyou can also read what happens when you take it too far http://www.freeleonardpickard.org/Skinner-Timeline.html http://www.freeleonardpickard.org/Skinner-Timeline.html http://www.dallasdancemusic.com/awareness-politics/73509-teen-kidnapped-tortured.html http://www.dallasdancemusic.com/awareness-politics/73509-tee... http://www.vice.com/read/life-is-a-cosmic-giggle-803-v18n5 http://www.vice.com/read/life-is-a-cosmic-giggle-803-v18n5 of course rumor has it he would take DMT via IV for 8 + hours several times a week. I can only imagine what that would do to someone's mind (hint it wouldn't be pretty)
- cnp 14y agoOh yeah, I've read that Vice article before. EVIL dude. I couldn't imagine anything worse, physical or otherwise.
- erock 14y agoa few years ago i read the account of what went down with the kidnapping, Truly horrible stuff there, highlights include ball stomping, injecting him with an unknown substance which still affects him (likely a parasite) and leaving him for dead in the middle of the desert. For some reason I can't find it, which is likely for the better
- cnp 14y agoWhile I'm certain this doesn't qualitatively compare to a thumbprint of LSD, I have had the most INTENSE experiences with pure DMT. So much so I'm very hesitant to ever consider doing anything within that class again. Just like Strassman described in his research studies (http://www.rickstrassman.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&Itemid=54 http://www.rickstrassman.com/index.php?option=com_content...), the "entity" / "alien" contact that people report is utterly inexplicable and real to those experiencing it, myself included, and consistent. Spaceships, abduction tables, 3000000-million-years-in-the-future technology, telepathic communication, and so on. Its beyond words, and it's terrifyingly real. Honestly, I hesitate to even call DMT a psychedelic; its more like a time machine or teleportation device. Having done the whole gamut of psychedelics, I can, with complete certainly, say that this is something else entirely, and it needs to be further explored.
- linuxhansl 14y agoLoss of ego. Personal death. Seeing ALL, the "connectiveness" of everything. This sounds like an extreme version of some of the experiences I had while meditating (usually after the 30-50 minute mark). These experiences for me typically vanish as soon as I come out of meditation. But something sticks, as if the mind is reminded of the experience at random times. Those times feel like "seeing the matrix". You're suddenly here seeing the intricacy of everything. There have been Buddhist monks who after trying LSD suggested that it could be some kind of "accelerator" on the spiritual path.
- gnosis 14y agoYou might be interested in reading the following article, titled "Are Psychedelics Useful in the Practice of Buddhism?" http://psychonautdocs.com/docs/stolaroff_buddhism.pdf http://psychonautdocs.com/docs/stolaroff_buddhism.pdf
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- muster 14y agoBrilliance.
- iwasphone 14y agoI'm glad to see so few commenters dismissing the subject because of their own lack of perspective, and so many commenters articulating their experiences so well. The Internet--which incidentally owes its current incarnation to so many acid-dropping individuals--has provided many forums (fora?) for truthful discourse about these substances. Those who have had experience with LSD together have a voice that is going to drown out the insane, fearful rambling propaganda of the prohibitionists. It's safe to say we've reached a tipping point, and it's only a matter of time before we recover our freedom to explore our minds. Respect.
- nnq 14y agoDoes anyone have real data on the LD50 (median lethal dose) for LSD in primates or something more similar to humans than rats? ...I find it nearly impossible to find any good hard data on this, and considering that the substance was once researched even by the military, there should be some data somewhere. ...and no, you can't compare LD50 for iv injected LSD with injested or mouth-absorbed LSD, there might be very different pharmacokinetics and the deaths from injected doses might be a "reflex" heart stop or some other preventable cardiovascular side-effect.
- xshoppyx 14y agoIt was researched by the military for interrogation purposes IIRC. I think they used human subjects for this so I doubt any lethal doses were given, and doubt even further that they would be published if so.
- caetano 14y agoFrom my experiences involving meditation and psychedelics I find it to be an energetic transformation. Basically, the drugs alters the subject's energetic vibration which pushes awareness into different realms. The chakra model is a common map of these vibrations: http://www.grdn.cc/energy-slash-quality-slash-organ-slash-activation http://www.grdn.cc/energy-slash-quality-slash-organ-slash-ac... Personally I'm finding some of these levels are achievable without the use of drugs. I used to work with micro-doses of LSD, 1 day dose 10ug / 2 days off, but quickly found I can achieve the states through meditation. Here's a section from Ram Dass book "Be Here Now". He travels to India seeking answers to what LSD could be all about. He eventually encounters a very advanced yogi: --- He looked at me and extended his hand. So I put into his hand what's called a "White Lightning". This is an LSD pill and this one was from a special batch that had been made specially for me for traveling. And each pill was 305 micrograms, and very pure. Very good acid. Usually you start a man over 60, maybe with 50 to 75 micrograms, very gently, so you won't upset him. 300 of pure acid is a very solid dose. He looks at the pill and extends his hand further. So I put a second pill - that's 610 micrograms - then a third pill - that's 915 micrograms - into his palm. That is sizeable for a first dose for anyone! "Ah-cha." And he swallow them! I see them go down. There's no doubt. And that little scientist in me says, "This is going to be very interesting!" All day long I'm there, and every now and then he twinkles at me and nothing - nothing happens! That was his answer to my question. Now you have the data I have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Here_Now_(book) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Here_Now_(book) ---
- Nursie 14y agoYogis and spiritual guides in India seem mostly to be conmen. The idea that they have some sort of key to advanced spiritual knowledge is popular in the west but thoroughly misguided.
- gnosis 14y agoDecades after "Be Here Now" was published, Ram Dass published a follow-up interview, in which he revealed that he found out that his yogi had actually never taken the LSD he was given. Instead, he used a magician's sleight of hand trick to make it appear that he swallowed the LSD when he did not.
- exodust 14y ago> "LSD is a direct message from God. Period." > "I feel high all the time still and it's been years." Reason to avoid large doses right there.
- powertower 14y agoThe described LSD "thumbprint" sounds more like 10-30mg to me. As a grain or two of table-top salt is about 1mg (*but this of course depends on the density of the substance). Either way it sounds like a horrifying experience for anyone that's not ready. And also for those that are. The first time I tried mushrooms, instead of 1 stem and a cap (of some fairly potent shrooms), I ate the entire bag. Then I made the further mistake of trying to sleep it off. Let's just say that was a mistake as at least otherwise I would have remained slightly inside the real realm, even if it was melting apart. What happened afterwards, as I fell asleep and at the same time was aware, while tripping (in the worst of ways), had me in a place you don't want to ever go.
- gnosis 14y ago"I ate the entire bag. Then I made the further mistake of trying to sleep it off..." Sounds like you also made a major mistake in tripping without an experienced guide to help you through the experience. Any guide worth their salt would have helped you select the proper dose, would know that you're not going to be able to sleep off a serious psychedelic experience, and would have known how to help you have a positive experience. Unfortunately, way too many people try psychedelics without having much of a clue as to how to use the substances constructively. Reading the following link would be a good start: https://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/faqs/psychedelic_experience_faq.shtml https://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/faqs/psychedelic_experi...