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I included the example that I did because betterunix's comment included two trigger phrases for me: "big trouble if they skip class" and "produce compliant peop

by teach 14y ago

I included the example that I did because betterunix's comment included two trigger phrases for me: "big trouble if they skip class" and "produce compliant people". I've been teaching CS for more than 15 years; the brilliant but unconventional student is literally who I work with all day. betterunix's choice of language brings to mind many dozens of students I've taught over the years. It's the "I'm smarter than them and I can see the Game is bullshit but they get rewarded for blindly following orders and I get in trouble if I want to learn" trope. (Apologies to betterunix if I've misjudged you, but I've seen it SO MANY TIMES I'm probably not wrong.) The thing is, yes, some of what students are being asked to do in public schools is bullshit. I try to minimize that in my own classroom, and I literally teach seminars to other teachers trying to convert them as well. But basic compliance is absolutely necessary. Your average public school is not a police state. Asking students to complete a worksheet, even if it utterly lacks value, is not a violation of their fundamental human rights, and you are not a brave free-thinker for "standing up to The Man." Schools absolutely DO NOT make a goal of "produc[ing] compliant people." It's just that the average student must comply in order for public schools to work at all. And if that's in place, then we can try to actually teach something worthwhile.

betterunix 14y ago
"basic compliance is absolutely necessary" Basic compliance is necessary for what? Here you are, claiming that the goal of school is not to produce compliant people, yet you claim that compliance is "absolutely necessary" in a school. You are claiming that time-wasting assignments with no educational value are a necessary thing for students to work through, because at some point you might be able to teach. How about just skipping the things that you admit are pointless, and just teaching? "the average student" If you are willing to acknowledge that some students are different from others, that some students have different needs than others, why not grade talented students differently? If you have a student who has clearly mastered the material of the course, to the point where your assignments and lectures are just wasting their time, why not give them an A and then teach them more interesting / advanced material? Why demand that students who are not in need of your instruction be just as obedient as those who would be lost without you?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- teach 14y ago
  Basic compliance is absolutely necessary in any working environment. It sounds like you're advocating anarchy as a viable education model. "You are claiming that time-wasting assignments with no educational value are a necessary thing for students to work through." I am absolutely not saying that. I had hoped your reading comprehension was better than that. I said: "asking students to complete a worksheet, even if it utterly lacks value, is not a violation of their fundamental human rights." I stand by this statement. Note that I am not in any way advocating time-wasting assignments. Time-wasting assigments may indicate a poor teacher. However, refusing to do them and/or skipping class is more a reflection on the student than the system. Regarding your final paragraph: there are a LOT of assumptions there based on how you think I run my classroom. You have assumed incorrectly at almost point. I do literally everything you suggest in my classroom. Edit: here's evidence of that from a couple of years ago [1] [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2093221 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2093221
  - betterunix 14y ago
    Well I did not mean to imply anything specific about the way you run your class; those were more rhetorical questions than anything. On the other hand, I am not sure how you can defend the idea that a student who fails to complete a time-wasting assignment should be punished, which is what you seem to be saying, when your own teaching style seems to be based on trying not to waste students' time. Nor am I sure how you can reconcile the idea that time-wasting assignments indicate a poor teacher with the notion that students should be completing those assignments. Now, as for my reading comprehension, the way I read what you wrote is this: students should do as they are told because compliance is necessary for a school to function, even if they are told to work through a time-wasting assignment. I am still not sure that is the wrong way to interpret what you are saying. What I see in your comments is the idea that it should be entirely the teachers' responsibility to ensure that students are learning, and that students should just do what their teachers command regardless of whether or not they actually learn anything from it (feel free to correct me if this is not your view). Thus a student who does not bother with pointless exercises that have no educational value is just as wrong as the teacher who gave those exercises, regardless of whether or not the student is learning in lieu of doing their official assignments. For what it's worth, if I had you as a teacher back in high school, I probably would have done well, at least based on what you said elsewhere.

by teach 14y ago

betterunix 14y ago

"basic compliance is absolutely necessary" Basic compliance is necessary for what? Here you are, claiming that the goal of school is not to produce compliant people, yet you claim that compliance is "absolutely necessary" in a school. You are claiming that time-wasting assignments with no educational value are a necessary thing for students to work through, because at some point you might be able to teach. How about just skipping the things that you admit are pointless, and just teaching? "the average student" If you are willing to acknowledge that some students are different from others, that some students have different needs than others, why not grade talented students differently? If you have a student who has clearly mastered the material of the course, to the point where your assignments and lectures are just wasting their time, why not give them an A and then teach them more interesting / advanced material? Why demand that students who are not in need of your instruction be just as obedient as those who would be lost without you?

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
teach 14y ago
Basic compliance is absolutely necessary in any working environment. It sounds like you're advocating anarchy as a viable education model. "You are claiming that time-wasting assignments with no educational value are a necessary thing for students to work through." I am absolutely not saying that. I had hoped your reading comprehension was better than that. I said: "asking students to complete a worksheet, even if it utterly lacks value, is not a violation of their fundamental human rights." I stand by this statement. Note that I am not in any way advocating time-wasting assignments. Time-wasting assigments may indicate a poor teacher. However, refusing to do them and/or skipping class is more a reflection on the student than the system. Regarding your final paragraph: there are a LOT of assumptions there based on how you think I run my classroom. You have assumed incorrectly at almost point. I do literally everything you suggest in my classroom. Edit: here's evidence of that from a couple of years ago [1] [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2093221 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2093221
- betterunix 14y ago
  Well I did not mean to imply anything specific about the way you run your class; those were more rhetorical questions than anything. On the other hand, I am not sure how you can defend the idea that a student who fails to complete a time-wasting assignment should be punished, which is what you seem to be saying, when your own teaching style seems to be based on trying not to waste students' time. Nor am I sure how you can reconcile the idea that time-wasting assignments indicate a poor teacher with the notion that students should be completing those assignments. Now, as for my reading comprehension, the way I read what you wrote is this: students should do as they are told because compliance is necessary for a school to function, even if they are told to work through a time-wasting assignment. I am still not sure that is the wrong way to interpret what you are saying. What I see in your comments is the idea that it should be entirely the teachers' responsibility to ensure that students are learning, and that students should just do what their teachers command regardless of whether or not they actually learn anything from it (feel free to correct me if this is not your view). Thus a student who does not bother with pointless exercises that have no educational value is just as wrong as the teacher who gave those exercises, regardless of whether or not the student is learning in lieu of doing their official assignments. For what it's worth, if I had you as a teacher back in high school, I probably would have done well, at least based on what you said elsewhere.