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I'm not tokenadult, but I can offer my two cents. Assuming they're being paid "enough", paying teachers more does almost nothing to improve motivation or perfo

by teach 14y ago

I'm not tokenadult, but I can offer my two cents. Assuming they're being paid "enough", paying teachers more does almost nothing to improve motivation or performance. There are quite a few studies about this, and my own experience bears that out. Having students that are out of the normal context does make a difference, though. Especially given that there is high parental expectation for the student to make an effort. That's really a big deal, and parental support like that is very inconsistent in public schools.

aetherson 14y ago
The fact that teachers aren't motivated more by greater rewards for excellence (money), but are strongly motivated by having a job with excellent security even for mediocre performers, should not be something that comforts us.
- intended 14y ago
  Or teachers are rewarded by educating students, and don't look at it from a totally mercenary perspective. Which is generally what you want from teachers who ideally can be a students champion, guide, educator all at once, for a short span of time. Once you tell someone their performance is only correlated with income, then they focus on those levers to manage it. And once you have a sufficiently complex role, such an incentive structure ceases to be useful, and ends up killing creativity and open minded ness.
hdctambien 14y ago
Paying people that are currently teachers more does not improve their performance. But, the pool of people willing to take up the profession of teaching increases if the pay is higher. Where I taught, teachers with only a bachelors degree maxed out at $60,000 a year after 15 years of teaching (you could get that up to $80,000 if you got a doctorate). I was earning less than half of that. After teaching for a year, I quit to take an entry level programming job and was suddenly making more than I would have ever made as a teacher and my job was physically and emotionally much easier. I probably wasn't going to be a great teacher. But how many great teachers exist but can't/won't take a job that pays so little? Right now schools hire the best candidate willing to work for so little. I'd like to see them start filling up with the best candidates.
jessaustin 14y ago
The answer about teacher motivation/performance is interesting, not least because it isn't answering the question that was asked. (Unless you do private work like tokenadult I suppose you don't have a basis from which to answer that question.) Do you find that public school teachers are paid enough? If they are paid enough in general, are there particular groups that aren't? Are there other particular groups that are paid significantly more than enough? The answer concerning students makes perfect sense, and is what I would have expected. I want to blame the parents, but then I remember where they went to school.
- teach 14y ago
  I actually ignored your question because it seemed obvious (to me at least) that it would have virtually no effect. I cannot imagine a situation in which the motivation of the student would be in any way affected by the fact that the parent was paying the teacher. EXCEPT, as I mentioned, where that fact intersects with the parents having high expectations that the teaching is of value. In my experience, public school teachers are paid "enough". I worked out some numbers to that effect a few years ago [1] However, that doesn't help bring qualified people into the discipline. I wrote about that, too. [2] [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2979976 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2979976 [2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=114403 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=114403
  - jessaustin 14y ago
    >>>> Do you find that the fact you are paid by parents for your work has any effect on... your own motivation or performance? >>> ...paying teachers more does almost nothing to improve motivation or performance. >> The answer about teacher motivation/performance is interesting, not least because it isn't answering the question that was asked. > I actually ignored your question because it seemed obvious (to me at least) that it would have virtually no effect. I cannot imagine a situation in which the motivation of the student would be in any way affected by the fact that the parent was paying the teacher. Do you teach reading comprehension? I would have hoped that it was clear: I was asking about the effect that being paid directly by the customer has on the performance and motivation of the teacher. Much like it affects the performance of waitresses, auto mechanics, architects, dentists, store clerks, pro athletes, and in fact most occupations in a market economy. If we're not providing a service that customers prefer to competing services, we're out of a job. tokenadult is a teacher who might have some experience of this phenomenon, so I asked him about it. I really hope you're trolling me here, but I suspect instead a sort of epistemic blindness.

by teach 14y ago

aetherson 14y ago

The fact that teachers aren't motivated more by greater rewards for excellence (money), but are strongly motivated by having a job with excellent security even for mediocre performers, should not be something that comforts us.

intended 14y ago
Or teachers are rewarded by educating students, and don't look at it from a totally mercenary perspective. Which is generally what you want from teachers who ideally can be a students champion, guide, educator all at once, for a short span of time. Once you tell someone their performance is only correlated with income, then they focus on those levers to manage it. And once you have a sufficiently complex role, such an incentive structure ceases to be useful, and ends up killing creativity and open minded ness.

hdctambien 14y ago

Paying people that are currently teachers more does not improve their performance. But, the pool of people willing to take up the profession of teaching increases if the pay is higher. Where I taught, teachers with only a bachelors degree maxed out at $60,000 a year after 15 years of teaching (you could get that up to $80,000 if you got a doctorate). I was earning less than half of that. After teaching for a year, I quit to take an entry level programming job and was suddenly making more than I would have ever made as a teacher and my job was physically and emotionally much easier. I probably wasn't going to be a great teacher. But how many great teachers exist but can't/won't take a job that pays so little? Right now schools hire the best candidate willing to work for so little. I'd like to see them start filling up with the best candidates.

jessaustin 14y ago

The answer about teacher motivation/performance is interesting, not least because it isn't answering the question that was asked. (Unless you do private work like tokenadult I suppose you don't have a basis from which to answer that question.) Do you find that public school teachers are paid enough? If they are paid enough in general, are there particular groups that aren't? Are there other particular groups that are paid significantly more than enough? The answer concerning students makes perfect sense, and is what I would have expected. I want to blame the parents, but then I remember where they went to school.

teach 14y ago
I actually ignored your question because it seemed obvious (to me at least) that it would have virtually no effect. I cannot imagine a situation in which the motivation of the student would be in any way affected by the fact that the parent was paying the teacher. EXCEPT, as I mentioned, where that fact intersects with the parents having high expectations that the teaching is of value. In my experience, public school teachers are paid "enough". I worked out some numbers to that effect a few years ago [1] However, that doesn't help bring qualified people into the discipline. I wrote about that, too. [2] [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2979976 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2979976 [2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=114403 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=114403
- jessaustin 14y ago
  >>>> Do you find that the fact you are paid by parents for your work has any effect on... your own motivation or performance? >>> ...paying teachers more does almost nothing to improve motivation or performance. >> The answer about teacher motivation/performance is interesting, not least because it isn't answering the question that was asked. > I actually ignored your question because it seemed obvious (to me at least) that it would have virtually no effect. I cannot imagine a situation in which the motivation of the student would be in any way affected by the fact that the parent was paying the teacher. Do you teach reading comprehension? I would have hoped that it was clear: I was asking about the effect that being paid directly by the customer has on the performance and motivation of the teacher. Much like it affects the performance of waitresses, auto mechanics, architects, dentists, store clerks, pro athletes, and in fact most occupations in a market economy. If we're not providing a service that customers prefer to competing services, we're out of a job. tokenadult is a teacher who might have some experience of this phenomenon, so I asked him about it. I really hope you're trolling me here, but I suspect instead a sort of epistemic blindness.