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Standardized testing is a complete farse. Here's one reason (amongst many I am sure). I have a relative who was a Professor at Eastern Michigan and got her Ph

Standardized testing is a complete farse. Here's one reason (amongst many I am sure). I have a relative who was a Professor at Eastern Michigan and got her PhD in Education. For her dissertation she looked at standardized testing in USA as well as internationally. She was in Finland, doing research at a school there when she noticed a discrepancy in their testing statistics, specifically, the number of students being tested as compared to the total population. Particularly, she noticed that NONE of the children with special needs were taking the tests. When she inquired as to why, the administrator was pretty blunt: "Well, they are not tested because they are handicapped." I question why the USA is reacting (maybe even over-reacting) to a situation that is not apples for apples. EDIT: I realize this is an anecdotal story. But the gist is that education in the USA is an inclusive opportunity for everyone and every student undergoes standardized testing. The same can't be said across the world so how can a true comparison be made?

themgt 14y ago
If you go out and meet gen x/y Finnish people they are in general shockingly more educated, intelligent, and well-informed about reality and events in the world around them than are Americans in the same age group. Most also know at least 2-3 languages and have traveled and met people of many different cultures/languages. They are in general also significantly more physically and mentally healthy. America really is not doing well as a society at the moment.
- gamblor956 14y ago
  You can say the same thing about many segments of the American population of the same size and demographic homogeneity as Finland...
  - rdouble 14y ago
    Unfortunately, one actually cannot say there is a contiguous & homogeneous Finland sized segment of Americans that know 2-3 languages, travel extensively and are well educated and informed about reality.
  - frozenport 14y ago
    1. There are no demographically homogeneous parts of America, perhaps the ghetto may qualify, but thats not your point. 2. Even in the most elite school, you would be hard pressed to find somebody who can speak 3 languages. This is for the predictable reason that the state of Indiana is not bordered by 3 distinct linguistic regions. 3. The differences between American and Finnish schools have been summarized here : http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands... . All American students are subject to the crippling exams and tests mentioned many times over. It is my opinion that the elite groups are ones where their families can make up for what is not taught in school: which often means connections to a culture outside of the US. For example, Finnish. The only hope for American children is to stop being American.
- MikeKusold 14y ago
  > have traveled and met people of many different cultures/languages. Traveling to different countries is much easier to do in Europe than the US. There you can take the train for a weekend trip, here you need to save up thousands of dollars and take your kids out of school for at least a week (if not done during the summer). Also, I think that Americans interact with more cultures and languages daily because it is a land of immigration. From a young age I learned how my nationality's ethnic dance, traditions, and customs. I have also learned about my friend's traditions from India, Germany, England, South Korea, etc... all without leaving my city. However, I do concede that there should be a stronger push for becoming fluent in foreign languages at a younger age. Unfortunately there is a prevalent attitude in society that it isn't "American" to do so.
  - ahoyhere 14y ago
    > * Americans interact with more cultures and languages daily because it is a land of immigration* Only in a few places. You'd be amazed at how many people even in a big, multicultural city can't understand my husband speaking at all due to his (extremely light, perfectly grammatically correct) Austrian accent. Or how many (vast majority) of Americans assume all Latinos are "Mexicans" -- not Americans of long descent (thanks to our whole, you know, manifest destiny), not Ecuadorans, etc., but Mexican. I used to live in southern MD which had a huge immigrant population and despite the "Viva Ecuador" bumper stickers everywhere, everybody thought they were "Mexicans." Like, the flag is right there. But nope.
    - btilly 14y ago
      Anecdotally I've heard people from New Mexico complain that people look at their license plate and assume they are not American. We are talking about a country where large minorities to majorities do not know whether the Sun goes around the Earth or vice versa, that there has been no significant scientific debate about evolution in a century, or that the evidence for human-caused global warming is overwhelming. A country where many colleges find that the performance of their football team has a bigger impact on their financial bottom line than the quality of their academics. Outside of various bubbles, this is not a country that actually values knowledge very much. Every attempt to change that is swimming upstream against a strong current.
- lelandbatey 14y ago
  I have found that young adults who are in an environment similar to those of the "Gen x/y Finnish" have similar traits. However, the United States does not have the luxury of having nearly the entire country living an environment like that (compared to the relativity small and highly metropolitan European countries). To draw a comparison in the way you have is disingenuous.
  - themgt 14y ago
    That's like saying the elites in [insert third world country] who go to western-style universities are quite similar to their western counterparts, and therefore it's disingenuous to talk about the conditions most in that country live in.
  - jessaustin 14y ago
    I'm just as suspicious of Scandinavian comparisons as the next American, but this is not a valid objection. We are specifically comparing the privileges and services that each society provides to its citizens, for the citizens' well-being and that of the society as a whole. To say, "we don't have that luxury" (of what? a "metropolitan" environment? our urban kids do worse than our rural kids!) is to admit in damning fashion that our privileges and services aren't as good as those the Finnish receive. I could understand this sort of whining from Bangladesh or the Congo, but coming from the USA it's pathetic.
    - gamblor956 14y ago
      It's a lot easier for 17 million people to live in (relative) privilege than it is for 300+ million. Scale matters when dealing with tangible requirements.
      - jessaustin 14y ago
        I'm not sure what "scale" is supposed to indicate in this context; if you rank nations by population density then Singapore is at one end and Finland is at the other, and they both have better results than the USA. In 2011 Finnish per capita GDP was less than 80% of ours. I don't doubt they'll pass us eventually (Singapore already has), and our woeful system of elementary and secondary education is a principal reason why.
- Ras_ 14y ago
  All know at least 3, because two are compulsory and that does not include English. Finland has a small problem of degree inflation. Masters degree is highly preferred. Vast majority in traditional research university students are likely to skip over the bachelors. Because of this average graduation age is dangerously close to 30. Finnish perspective: The only quality you truly need to worry about is the quality of your teacher education.
tokenadult 14y ago
You can find out the answers to the factual questions you raise (not from anecdotes, but from published, peer-reviewed research reports) by looking up the publications of the two main international educational studies, TIMSS and PISA. http://timss.bc.edu/ http://timss.bc.edu/ http://nces.ed.gov/timss/ http://nces.ed.gov/timss/ http://www.oecd.org/pisa/ http://www.oecd.org/pisa/ Simply put, you are mistaken if you think that the United States is especially disadvantaged by how the national sample surveys on which those programs are based are constructed. AFTER EDIT: Following up on the two replies now shown, the PISA FAQ document does not imply that there is any systematic different in national sample characteristics by learning disability, which is the claim farther up in this subthread. Further, people who have read the extensive research literature on learning disability identification in varying countries will be well aware that the United States is particularly generous in identifying students as having "special needs" as compared to other countries, so a general student sample from other countries would be more, not less, likely than a United States sample to include unidentified students who have personal special learning needs.
- up_and_up 14y ago
  Okay, where in those studies do they mention which students were sampled? I cant find anything. I highly doubt Hong Kong, Singapore and China include children with disabilities in their tests.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
nekojima 14y ago
Another anecdotal story would be in my classroom in 1980-90s Canada, where not all the students wrote those international testing exams, and of those that did, only a select few had their tests submitted by the school for grading. This was confirmed to the school's PTA (Parent Teacher Association) after concerns were raised about taking time from teaching for an exam that was not felt to help the students' learning. Having discussed the issue with a senior education ministry official in Singapore, they pre-select which schools and students write the exam. Even if all students in those schools write the exam, not all exam scores are submitted. She did a study in China recently (not yet published), and there only elite urban schools are tested, primarily in Shanghai and Beijing, with a similar selection process. I would much prefer my children to be taught in a middle-ranked Canadian school, than any I have so-far visited in Singapore or China, no matter at what level the students supposedly score on international tests.
king_jester 14y ago
> EDIT: I realize this is an anecdotal story. But the gist is that education in the USA is an inclusive opportunity for everyone and every student undergoes standardized testing. Unfortunately this is just not true. Foreign language and special needs students suffer the most under a standardized testing regime, as do their teachers. The quality of your school has a lot to do with the quality of where you live, which means that significant portions of people get a substandard experience. The author's essay also highlights that the needs of any given community are likely to be overridden by someone who has no idea what a given school or community needs.

themgt 14y ago

If you go out and meet gen x/y Finnish people they are in general shockingly more educated, intelligent, and well-informed about reality and events in the world around them than are Americans in the same age group. Most also know at least 2-3 languages and have traveled and met people of many different cultures/languages. They are in general also significantly more physically and mentally healthy. America really is not doing well as a society at the moment.

gamblor956 14y ago
You can say the same thing about many segments of the American population of the same size and demographic homogeneity as Finland...
- rdouble 14y ago
  Unfortunately, one actually cannot say there is a contiguous & homogeneous Finland sized segment of Americans that know 2-3 languages, travel extensively and are well educated and informed about reality.
- frozenport 14y ago
  1. There are no demographically homogeneous parts of America, perhaps the ghetto may qualify, but thats not your point. 2. Even in the most elite school, you would be hard pressed to find somebody who can speak 3 languages. This is for the predictable reason that the state of Indiana is not bordered by 3 distinct linguistic regions. 3. The differences between American and Finnish schools have been summarized here : http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands... . All American students are subject to the crippling exams and tests mentioned many times over. It is my opinion that the elite groups are ones where their families can make up for what is not taught in school: which often means connections to a culture outside of the US. For example, Finnish. The only hope for American children is to stop being American.
MikeKusold 14y ago
> have traveled and met people of many different cultures/languages. Traveling to different countries is much easier to do in Europe than the US. There you can take the train for a weekend trip, here you need to save up thousands of dollars and take your kids out of school for at least a week (if not done during the summer). Also, I think that Americans interact with more cultures and languages daily because it is a land of immigration. From a young age I learned how my nationality's ethnic dance, traditions, and customs. I have also learned about my friend's traditions from India, Germany, England, South Korea, etc... all without leaving my city. However, I do concede that there should be a stronger push for becoming fluent in foreign languages at a younger age. Unfortunately there is a prevalent attitude in society that it isn't "American" to do so.
- ahoyhere 14y ago
  > * Americans interact with more cultures and languages daily because it is a land of immigration* Only in a few places. You'd be amazed at how many people even in a big, multicultural city can't understand my husband speaking at all due to his (extremely light, perfectly grammatically correct) Austrian accent. Or how many (vast majority) of Americans assume all Latinos are "Mexicans" -- not Americans of long descent (thanks to our whole, you know, manifest destiny), not Ecuadorans, etc., but Mexican. I used to live in southern MD which had a huge immigrant population and despite the "Viva Ecuador" bumper stickers everywhere, everybody thought they were "Mexicans." Like, the flag is right there. But nope.
  - btilly 14y ago
    Anecdotally I've heard people from New Mexico complain that people look at their license plate and assume they are not American. We are talking about a country where large minorities to majorities do not know whether the Sun goes around the Earth or vice versa, that there has been no significant scientific debate about evolution in a century, or that the evidence for human-caused global warming is overwhelming. A country where many colleges find that the performance of their football team has a bigger impact on their financial bottom line than the quality of their academics. Outside of various bubbles, this is not a country that actually values knowledge very much. Every attempt to change that is swimming upstream against a strong current.
lelandbatey 14y ago
I have found that young adults who are in an environment similar to those of the "Gen x/y Finnish" have similar traits. However, the United States does not have the luxury of having nearly the entire country living an environment like that (compared to the relativity small and highly metropolitan European countries). To draw a comparison in the way you have is disingenuous.
- themgt 14y ago
  That's like saying the elites in [insert third world country] who go to western-style universities are quite similar to their western counterparts, and therefore it's disingenuous to talk about the conditions most in that country live in.
- jessaustin 14y ago
  I'm just as suspicious of Scandinavian comparisons as the next American, but this is not a valid objection. We are specifically comparing the privileges and services that each society provides to its citizens, for the citizens' well-being and that of the society as a whole. To say, "we don't have that luxury" (of what? a "metropolitan" environment? our urban kids do worse than our rural kids!) is to admit in damning fashion that our privileges and services aren't as good as those the Finnish receive. I could understand this sort of whining from Bangladesh or the Congo, but coming from the USA it's pathetic.
  - gamblor956 14y ago
    It's a lot easier for 17 million people to live in (relative) privilege than it is for 300+ million. Scale matters when dealing with tangible requirements.
    - jessaustin 14y ago
      I'm not sure what "scale" is supposed to indicate in this context; if you rank nations by population density then Singapore is at one end and Finland is at the other, and they both have better results than the USA. In 2011 Finnish per capita GDP was less than 80% of ours. I don't doubt they'll pass us eventually (Singapore already has), and our woeful system of elementary and secondary education is a principal reason why.
Ras_ 14y ago
All know at least 3, because two are compulsory and that does not include English. Finland has a small problem of degree inflation. Masters degree is highly preferred. Vast majority in traditional research university students are likely to skip over the bachelors. Because of this average graduation age is dangerously close to 30. Finnish perspective: The only quality you truly need to worry about is the quality of your teacher education.

tokenadult 14y ago

You can find out the answers to the factual questions you raise (not from anecdotes, but from published, peer-reviewed research reports) by looking up the publications of the two main international educational studies, TIMSS and PISA. http://timss.bc.edu/ http://timss.bc.edu/ http://nces.ed.gov/timss/ http://nces.ed.gov/timss/ http://www.oecd.org/pisa/ http://www.oecd.org/pisa/ Simply put, you are mistaken if you think that the United States is especially disadvantaged by how the national sample surveys on which those programs are based are constructed. AFTER EDIT: Following up on the two replies now shown, the PISA FAQ document does not imply that there is any systematic different in national sample characteristics by learning disability, which is the claim farther up in this subthread. Further, people who have read the extensive research literature on learning disability identification in varying countries will be well aware that the United States is particularly generous in identifying students as having "special needs" as compared to other countries, so a general student sample from other countries would be more, not less, likely than a United States sample to include unidentified students who have personal special learning needs.

up_and_up 14y ago
Okay, where in those studies do they mention which students were sampled? I cant find anything. I highly doubt Hong Kong, Singapore and China include children with disabilities in their tests.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

nekojima 14y ago

Another anecdotal story would be in my classroom in 1980-90s Canada, where not all the students wrote those international testing exams, and of those that did, only a select few had their tests submitted by the school for grading. This was confirmed to the school's PTA (Parent Teacher Association) after concerns were raised about taking time from teaching for an exam that was not felt to help the students' learning. Having discussed the issue with a senior education ministry official in Singapore, they pre-select which schools and students write the exam. Even if all students in those schools write the exam, not all exam scores are submitted. She did a study in China recently (not yet published), and there only elite urban schools are tested, primarily in Shanghai and Beijing, with a similar selection process. I would much prefer my children to be taught in a middle-ranked Canadian school, than any I have so-far visited in Singapore or China, no matter at what level the students supposedly score on international tests.

king_jester 14y ago

> EDIT: I realize this is an anecdotal story. But the gist is that education in the USA is an inclusive opportunity for everyone and every student undergoes standardized testing. Unfortunately this is just not true. Foreign language and special needs students suffer the most under a standardized testing regime, as do their teachers. The quality of your school has a lot to do with the quality of where you live, which means that significant portions of people get a substandard experience. The author's essay also highlights that the needs of any given community are likely to be overridden by someone who has no idea what a given school or community needs.