4 ms·

"Students in America are routinely published for any attempt to learn outside the confines of a narrow curriculum." As a public school teacher, I strongly disa

by teach 14y ago

"Students in America are routinely published for any attempt to learn outside the confines of a narrow curriculum." As a public school teacher, I strongly disagree with your opinion. I suspect your opinion has been formed based on a relatively small sample size. I'm sorry your experience was poor, but you simply don't have to data to implicate tens of thousands of schools. I do agree with one tiny piece of it, however: the biggest crime you can commit in an American public school is insubordination. No amount of intelligence or work ethic will save a student who refuses to do (or stop doing) what faculty and staff ask. I don't disagree with this policy because it's a simple matter of safety. My school employs slightly fewer than 200 faculty/staff. We have over 2000 students, most of whom are physically stronger. If students won't do what we ask them, it gets Lord of the Flies in a hurry.

waterlesscloud 14y ago
How did we get from talking about learning outside the curriculum to students physically overpowering teachers? Such a blatant attempt to muddy the waters of the discussion does not help your position.
- teach 14y ago
  I included the example that I did because betterunix's comment included two trigger phrases for me: "big trouble if they skip class" and "produce compliant people". I've been teaching CS for more than 15 years; the brilliant but unconventional student is literally who I work with all day. betterunix's choice of language brings to mind many dozens of students I've taught over the years. It's the "I'm smarter than them and I can see the Game is bullshit but they get rewarded for blindly following orders and I get in trouble if I want to learn" trope. (Apologies to betterunix if I've misjudged you, but I've seen it SO MANY TIMES I'm probably not wrong.) The thing is, yes, some of what students are being asked to do in public schools is bullshit. I try to minimize that in my own classroom, and I literally teach seminars to other teachers trying to convert them as well. But basic compliance is absolutely necessary. Your average public school is not a police state. Asking students to complete a worksheet, even if it utterly lacks value, is not a violation of their fundamental human rights, and you are not a brave free-thinker for "standing up to The Man." Schools absolutely DO NOT make a goal of "produc[ing] compliant people." It's just that the average student must comply in order for public schools to work at all. And if that's in place, then we can try to actually teach something worthwhile.
  - betterunix 14y ago
    "basic compliance is absolutely necessary" Basic compliance is necessary for what? Here you are, claiming that the goal of school is not to produce compliant people, yet you claim that compliance is "absolutely necessary" in a school. You are claiming that time-wasting assignments with no educational value are a necessary thing for students to work through, because at some point you might be able to teach. How about just skipping the things that you admit are pointless, and just teaching? "the average student" If you are willing to acknowledge that some students are different from others, that some students have different needs than others, why not grade talented students differently? If you have a student who has clearly mastered the material of the course, to the point where your assignments and lectures are just wasting their time, why not give them an A and then teach them more interesting / advanced material? Why demand that students who are not in need of your instruction be just as obedient as those who would be lost without you?
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - teach 14y ago
      Basic compliance is absolutely necessary in any working environment. It sounds like you're advocating anarchy as a viable education model. "You are claiming that time-wasting assignments with no educational value are a necessary thing for students to work through." I am absolutely not saying that. I had hoped your reading comprehension was better than that. I said: "asking students to complete a worksheet, even if it utterly lacks value, is not a violation of their fundamental human rights." I stand by this statement. Note that I am not in any way advocating time-wasting assignments. Time-wasting assigments may indicate a poor teacher. However, refusing to do them and/or skipping class is more a reflection on the student than the system. Regarding your final paragraph: there are a LOT of assumptions there based on how you think I run my classroom. You have assumed incorrectly at almost point. I do literally everything you suggest in my classroom. Edit: here's evidence of that from a couple of years ago [1] [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2093221 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2093221
betterunix 14y ago
In other words, you approach school like prison or perhaps like a military occupation. In a prison, the guards must ensure that the inmates know who's boss, or else they will lose control of a population of dangerous people. In a military occupation, soldiers have to occasionally harass or intimidate the citizens whose lands they control before those citizens get any bright ideas about rebellion or independence.
- teach 14y ago
  I wrote my reply to waterlesscloud above before I read your comment here. I honestly don't mean to be condescending or dismissive. Truly. If I had had different parents and just the wrong combination of teachers in my own high school twenty-something years ago, I probably would have ended up with a very similar outlook on things.

by teach 14y ago

waterlesscloud 14y ago

How did we get from talking about learning outside the curriculum to students physically overpowering teachers? Such a blatant attempt to muddy the waters of the discussion does not help your position.

teach 14y ago
I included the example that I did because betterunix's comment included two trigger phrases for me: "big trouble if they skip class" and "produce compliant people". I've been teaching CS for more than 15 years; the brilliant but unconventional student is literally who I work with all day. betterunix's choice of language brings to mind many dozens of students I've taught over the years. It's the "I'm smarter than them and I can see the Game is bullshit but they get rewarded for blindly following orders and I get in trouble if I want to learn" trope. (Apologies to betterunix if I've misjudged you, but I've seen it SO MANY TIMES I'm probably not wrong.) The thing is, yes, some of what students are being asked to do in public schools is bullshit. I try to minimize that in my own classroom, and I literally teach seminars to other teachers trying to convert them as well. But basic compliance is absolutely necessary. Your average public school is not a police state. Asking students to complete a worksheet, even if it utterly lacks value, is not a violation of their fundamental human rights, and you are not a brave free-thinker for "standing up to The Man." Schools absolutely DO NOT make a goal of "produc[ing] compliant people." It's just that the average student must comply in order for public schools to work at all. And if that's in place, then we can try to actually teach something worthwhile.
- betterunix 14y ago
  "basic compliance is absolutely necessary" Basic compliance is necessary for what? Here you are, claiming that the goal of school is not to produce compliant people, yet you claim that compliance is "absolutely necessary" in a school. You are claiming that time-wasting assignments with no educational value are a necessary thing for students to work through, because at some point you might be able to teach. How about just skipping the things that you admit are pointless, and just teaching? "the average student" If you are willing to acknowledge that some students are different from others, that some students have different needs than others, why not grade talented students differently? If you have a student who has clearly mastered the material of the course, to the point where your assignments and lectures are just wasting their time, why not give them an A and then teach them more interesting / advanced material? Why demand that students who are not in need of your instruction be just as obedient as those who would be lost without you?
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - teach 14y ago
    Basic compliance is absolutely necessary in any working environment. It sounds like you're advocating anarchy as a viable education model. "You are claiming that time-wasting assignments with no educational value are a necessary thing for students to work through." I am absolutely not saying that. I had hoped your reading comprehension was better than that. I said: "asking students to complete a worksheet, even if it utterly lacks value, is not a violation of their fundamental human rights." I stand by this statement. Note that I am not in any way advocating time-wasting assignments. Time-wasting assigments may indicate a poor teacher. However, refusing to do them and/or skipping class is more a reflection on the student than the system. Regarding your final paragraph: there are a LOT of assumptions there based on how you think I run my classroom. You have assumed incorrectly at almost point. I do literally everything you suggest in my classroom. Edit: here's evidence of that from a couple of years ago [1] [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2093221 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2093221

betterunix 14y ago

In other words, you approach school like prison or perhaps like a military occupation. In a prison, the guards must ensure that the inmates know who's boss, or else they will lose control of a population of dangerous people. In a military occupation, soldiers have to occasionally harass or intimidate the citizens whose lands they control before those citizens get any bright ideas about rebellion or independence.

teach 14y ago
I wrote my reply to waterlesscloud above before I read your comment here. I honestly don't mean to be condescending or dismissive. Truly. If I had had different parents and just the wrong combination of teachers in my own high school twenty-something years ago, I probably would have ended up with a very similar outlook on things.