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"I firmly believe that any student who wants to learn will learn" Not if they are punished for it, and students in America are routinely [edit: punished] for a

"I firmly believe that any student who wants to learn will learn" Not if they are punished for it, and students in America are routinely [edit: punished] for any attempt to learn outside the confines of a narrow curriculum. Students routinely lose points for answers that are not based on what they were taught in class, even when their answers are correct and their techniques are logically sound. A student who is bored in class will be in big trouble if they skip class and spend their time learning independently. The problem is not that students do not wish to learn, but that our education fails to prioritize learning and actively discourages it. A student who wants to learn will be just as poorly served by the education system as a student who has no interest in learning. The only students who succeed are those who have mastered the art of compliance, as the primary purpose of American education is to produce compliant people.

teach 14y ago
"Students in America are routinely published for any attempt to learn outside the confines of a narrow curriculum." As a public school teacher, I strongly disagree with your opinion. I suspect your opinion has been formed based on a relatively small sample size. I'm sorry your experience was poor, but you simply don't have to data to implicate tens of thousands of schools. I do agree with one tiny piece of it, however: the biggest crime you can commit in an American public school is insubordination. No amount of intelligence or work ethic will save a student who refuses to do (or stop doing) what faculty and staff ask. I don't disagree with this policy because it's a simple matter of safety. My school employs slightly fewer than 200 faculty/staff. We have over 2000 students, most of whom are physically stronger. If students won't do what we ask them, it gets Lord of the Flies in a hurry.
- waterlesscloud 14y ago
  How did we get from talking about learning outside the curriculum to students physically overpowering teachers? Such a blatant attempt to muddy the waters of the discussion does not help your position.
  - teach 14y ago
    I included the example that I did because betterunix's comment included two trigger phrases for me: "big trouble if they skip class" and "produce compliant people". I've been teaching CS for more than 15 years; the brilliant but unconventional student is literally who I work with all day. betterunix's choice of language brings to mind many dozens of students I've taught over the years. It's the "I'm smarter than them and I can see the Game is bullshit but they get rewarded for blindly following orders and I get in trouble if I want to learn" trope. (Apologies to betterunix if I've misjudged you, but I've seen it SO MANY TIMES I'm probably not wrong.) The thing is, yes, some of what students are being asked to do in public schools is bullshit. I try to minimize that in my own classroom, and I literally teach seminars to other teachers trying to convert them as well. But basic compliance is absolutely necessary. Your average public school is not a police state. Asking students to complete a worksheet, even if it utterly lacks value, is not a violation of their fundamental human rights, and you are not a brave free-thinker for "standing up to The Man." Schools absolutely DO NOT make a goal of "produc[ing] compliant people." It's just that the average student must comply in order for public schools to work at all. And if that's in place, then we can try to actually teach something worthwhile.
    - betterunix 14y ago
      "basic compliance is absolutely necessary" Basic compliance is necessary for what? Here you are, claiming that the goal of school is not to produce compliant people, yet you claim that compliance is "absolutely necessary" in a school. You are claiming that time-wasting assignments with no educational value are a necessary thing for students to work through, because at some point you might be able to teach. How about just skipping the things that you admit are pointless, and just teaching? "the average student" If you are willing to acknowledge that some students are different from others, that some students have different needs than others, why not grade talented students differently? If you have a student who has clearly mastered the material of the course, to the point where your assignments and lectures are just wasting their time, why not give them an A and then teach them more interesting / advanced material? Why demand that students who are not in need of your instruction be just as obedient as those who would be lost without you?
- betterunix 14y ago
  In other words, you approach school like prison or perhaps like a military occupation. In a prison, the guards must ensure that the inmates know who's boss, or else they will lose control of a population of dangerous people. In a military occupation, soldiers have to occasionally harass or intimidate the citizens whose lands they control before those citizens get any bright ideas about rebellion or independence.
  - teach 14y ago
    I wrote my reply to waterlesscloud above before I read your comment here. I honestly don't mean to be condescending or dismissive. Truly. If I had had different parents and just the wrong combination of teachers in my own high school twenty-something years ago, I probably would have ended up with a very similar outlook on things.
jug6ernaut 14y ago
While I do agree that the current system in no way promotes creativity. The current standardize test system is simply inadequate. The problem with your analysis(IMO at least) is that you believe that learning and doing well on tests are mutually exclusive. While i do agree that these tests do direct students on a direct "compliant" course that does not in any way mean that those student striving to do well and if so learning by themselves would go in opposition to these exams. If anything learning on the side should only make these exams more mundane as they are a "minimum requirements" exams. Students learning on there own and striving to do better is never punished. Saying they are punished would mean the answers they are provide are technically right but graded as wrong. All I have to speak of on this are my personal experiences but i was never in a situation where my provided answer was counted wrong even if i used a different method as taught. Unless the specific exam was to test a particular method, in which case it would be given points taken off yes, but I believe thats warranted. The problem i believe you are speaking to is strict adherence to specific exam related curriculum. In which case I completely agree that this is the wrong direction to go, but at the same time I dont believe a student wanting to learn or learning outside of school would be negatively effected by these exams. Also i am in no way saying a student should ever skip school to learn on there own.
- betterunix 14y ago
  "Students learning on there own and striving to do better is never punished" Well I am a counterexample to that statement. I was punished year after year because I spent my time learning instead of doing my homework. "Saying they are punished would mean the answers they are provide are technically right but graded as wrong." Yes, that is exactly what happens, especially in math courses. Answers that are not only technically right, but which show a serious of logically consistent steps leading from the question to the answer, but where the steps diverge from what the teacher taught the student to do, are often marked as "wrong" or worse still, marked as "right" but with a point taken off for using a different technique. It happened to me on more than one occasion, and it happened to friends of mine. "Also i am in no way saying a student should ever skip school to learn on there own." Why not? If the goal of school is to educate students, does it really matter if a student attends class to learn or skips class to learn the material on their own? Does it make a different if a student skips class to learn, and then comes to the teacher outside of class to ask questions? Why is sitting in a classroom so important that we must punish students who fail to do so?

teach 14y ago

"Students in America are routinely published for any attempt to learn outside the confines of a narrow curriculum." As a public school teacher, I strongly disagree with your opinion. I suspect your opinion has been formed based on a relatively small sample size. I'm sorry your experience was poor, but you simply don't have to data to implicate tens of thousands of schools. I do agree with one tiny piece of it, however: the biggest crime you can commit in an American public school is insubordination. No amount of intelligence or work ethic will save a student who refuses to do (or stop doing) what faculty and staff ask. I don't disagree with this policy because it's a simple matter of safety. My school employs slightly fewer than 200 faculty/staff. We have over 2000 students, most of whom are physically stronger. If students won't do what we ask them, it gets Lord of the Flies in a hurry.

waterlesscloud 14y ago
How did we get from talking about learning outside the curriculum to students physically overpowering teachers? Such a blatant attempt to muddy the waters of the discussion does not help your position.
- teach 14y ago
  I included the example that I did because betterunix's comment included two trigger phrases for me: "big trouble if they skip class" and "produce compliant people". I've been teaching CS for more than 15 years; the brilliant but unconventional student is literally who I work with all day. betterunix's choice of language brings to mind many dozens of students I've taught over the years. It's the "I'm smarter than them and I can see the Game is bullshit but they get rewarded for blindly following orders and I get in trouble if I want to learn" trope. (Apologies to betterunix if I've misjudged you, but I've seen it SO MANY TIMES I'm probably not wrong.) The thing is, yes, some of what students are being asked to do in public schools is bullshit. I try to minimize that in my own classroom, and I literally teach seminars to other teachers trying to convert them as well. But basic compliance is absolutely necessary. Your average public school is not a police state. Asking students to complete a worksheet, even if it utterly lacks value, is not a violation of their fundamental human rights, and you are not a brave free-thinker for "standing up to The Man." Schools absolutely DO NOT make a goal of "produc[ing] compliant people." It's just that the average student must comply in order for public schools to work at all. And if that's in place, then we can try to actually teach something worthwhile.
  - betterunix 14y ago
    "basic compliance is absolutely necessary" Basic compliance is necessary for what? Here you are, claiming that the goal of school is not to produce compliant people, yet you claim that compliance is "absolutely necessary" in a school. You are claiming that time-wasting assignments with no educational value are a necessary thing for students to work through, because at some point you might be able to teach. How about just skipping the things that you admit are pointless, and just teaching? "the average student" If you are willing to acknowledge that some students are different from others, that some students have different needs than others, why not grade talented students differently? If you have a student who has clearly mastered the material of the course, to the point where your assignments and lectures are just wasting their time, why not give them an A and then teach them more interesting / advanced material? Why demand that students who are not in need of your instruction be just as obedient as those who would be lost without you?
betterunix 14y ago
In other words, you approach school like prison or perhaps like a military occupation. In a prison, the guards must ensure that the inmates know who's boss, or else they will lose control of a population of dangerous people. In a military occupation, soldiers have to occasionally harass or intimidate the citizens whose lands they control before those citizens get any bright ideas about rebellion or independence.
- teach 14y ago
  I wrote my reply to waterlesscloud above before I read your comment here. I honestly don't mean to be condescending or dismissive. Truly. If I had had different parents and just the wrong combination of teachers in my own high school twenty-something years ago, I probably would have ended up with a very similar outlook on things.

jug6ernaut 14y ago

While I do agree that the current system in no way promotes creativity. The current standardize test system is simply inadequate. The problem with your analysis(IMO at least) is that you believe that learning and doing well on tests are mutually exclusive. While i do agree that these tests do direct students on a direct "compliant" course that does not in any way mean that those student striving to do well and if so learning by themselves would go in opposition to these exams. If anything learning on the side should only make these exams more mundane as they are a "minimum requirements" exams. Students learning on there own and striving to do better is never punished. Saying they are punished would mean the answers they are provide are technically right but graded as wrong. All I have to speak of on this are my personal experiences but i was never in a situation where my provided answer was counted wrong even if i used a different method as taught. Unless the specific exam was to test a particular method, in which case it would be given points taken off yes, but I believe thats warranted. The problem i believe you are speaking to is strict adherence to specific exam related curriculum. In which case I completely agree that this is the wrong direction to go, but at the same time I dont believe a student wanting to learn or learning outside of school would be negatively effected by these exams. Also i am in no way saying a student should ever skip school to learn on there own.

betterunix 14y ago
"Students learning on there own and striving to do better is never punished" Well I am a counterexample to that statement. I was punished year after year because I spent my time learning instead of doing my homework. "Saying they are punished would mean the answers they are provide are technically right but graded as wrong." Yes, that is exactly what happens, especially in math courses. Answers that are not only technically right, but which show a serious of logically consistent steps leading from the question to the answer, but where the steps diverge from what the teacher taught the student to do, are often marked as "wrong" or worse still, marked as "right" but with a point taken off for using a different technique. It happened to me on more than one occasion, and it happened to friends of mine. "Also i am in no way saying a student should ever skip school to learn on there own." Why not? If the goal of school is to educate students, does it really matter if a student attends class to learn or skips class to learn the material on their own? Does it make a different if a student skips class to learn, and then comes to the teacher outside of class to ask questions? Why is sitting in a classroom so important that we must punish students who fail to do so?