3 ms·

I'm not suggesting a 180 degree about-face. And if we were talking about a company that didn't sell philosophy in the form of books and blogs, my point would ha

by tomkin 14y ago

I'm not suggesting a 180 degree about-face. And if we were talking about a company that didn't sell philosophy in the form of books and blogs, my point would have much less relevance. > as any good web developer will know. Am I missing something here? Pretty sure I haven't written 2 books, decrying overhead and the ills of appeasement. 37signals have 2 books (which I've read) that clearly illustrate why you should avoid scope/feature-creep – especially for the cost of satisfying a few people. The avoidance of a native app followed this lineage. I've watched the slow, articulated steps from "bootstrapping", Jeff Bezos, "this is different because X", etc. It's all very well and good, but you've charged people $. Like any customer, expectations are there. So I am to ignore hundreds of pages of text because we all don't have the books in front of us right now for reference? My overarching point is, if you're going to sell me an ideology - stay with it.

marknutter 14y ago
"So, should we expect 37signals to ditch "bootstrapping" over VC-funded startups soon?" I don't know how anybody could interpret this as anything but a complete about-face. Ditch being the key word. For your analogy to make sense, 37 Signals would have had to ditch html/css/javascript as their main stack for the mobile app, which they clearly did not.
- tomkin 14y ago
  Sorry, this bit about ditching is tongue-in-cheek. I don't actually expect them to do so, although I do feel that eventually this will happen and we'll all be back here discussing why it's different because of X. I'm also confused why the overwhelming majority of HN readers manage to claim that a HTML5/PhoneGap app is inferior to a native one, but then somehow bob and weave when 37signals does the same thing. Confusing! I have a problem with people speaking from authority, claiming their philosophy works well (which I agree with) and then slowly proposing the opposite. Again, as a frequent reader of their posts and philosophy, I'm confused as to why providing reference to this philosophy is considered blasphemy. I'm also confused by the very vocal and opinionated damning of security in other platforms by DHH while Rails suffers security issue after security issue. Suddenly, DHH isn't all that opinionated on security. And I'm the jerk for pointing this out, right? I know every person who disagrees with DHH or JF is automatically a troll without examination, but I'm a little tired of being considered a 37signals hater while I pay monthly for Basecamp, purchase their books and follow their line of work.
  - marknutter 14y ago
    > I'm also confused why the overwhelming majority of HN readers manage to claim that a HTML5/PhoneGap app is inferior to a native one, but then somehow bob and weave when 37signals does the same thing. Confusing! I agree with you there; it is confusing.
    - tomkin 14y ago
      This makes me think you may have interpreted my criticism as either PhoneGap or Objective-C bias. For the record, I believe in the right tool for the job, so it does not at all bother me that 37signals went HTML5/PhoneGap/etc. What bothers me is the slight of hand with the principals they are selling. In some broad respects, 37signals is the Oprah of the web biz - I know that sounds nuts, but I do believe that they sell a philosophy of betterment of the small business. There is a social responsibility, in my opinion, to uphold the tenets or at least explain why they are now different.
      - marknutter 14y ago
        I'll agree that they should have at least acknowledged their previous stance.

by tomkin 14y ago

marknutter 14y ago

"So, should we expect 37signals to ditch "bootstrapping" over VC-funded startups soon?" I don't know how anybody could interpret this as anything but a complete about-face. Ditch being the key word. For your analogy to make sense, 37 Signals would have had to ditch html/css/javascript as their main stack for the mobile app, which they clearly did not.

tomkin 14y ago
Sorry, this bit about ditching is tongue-in-cheek. I don't actually expect them to do so, although I do feel that eventually this will happen and we'll all be back here discussing why it's different because of X. I'm also confused why the overwhelming majority of HN readers manage to claim that a HTML5/PhoneGap app is inferior to a native one, but then somehow bob and weave when 37signals does the same thing. Confusing! I have a problem with people speaking from authority, claiming their philosophy works well (which I agree with) and then slowly proposing the opposite. Again, as a frequent reader of their posts and philosophy, I'm confused as to why providing reference to this philosophy is considered blasphemy. I'm also confused by the very vocal and opinionated damning of security in other platforms by DHH while Rails suffers security issue after security issue. Suddenly, DHH isn't all that opinionated on security. And I'm the jerk for pointing this out, right? I know every person who disagrees with DHH or JF is automatically a troll without examination, but I'm a little tired of being considered a 37signals hater while I pay monthly for Basecamp, purchase their books and follow their line of work.
- marknutter 14y ago
  > I'm also confused why the overwhelming majority of HN readers manage to claim that a HTML5/PhoneGap app is inferior to a native one, but then somehow bob and weave when 37signals does the same thing. Confusing! I agree with you there; it is confusing.
  - tomkin 14y ago
    This makes me think you may have interpreted my criticism as either PhoneGap or Objective-C bias. For the record, I believe in the right tool for the job, so it does not at all bother me that 37signals went HTML5/PhoneGap/etc. What bothers me is the slight of hand with the principals they are selling. In some broad respects, 37signals is the Oprah of the web biz - I know that sounds nuts, but I do believe that they sell a philosophy of betterment of the small business. There is a social responsibility, in my opinion, to uphold the tenets or at least explain why they are now different.
    - marknutter 14y ago
      I'll agree that they should have at least acknowledged their previous stance.