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"Eventually we came to the conclusion that we should stick with what we’re good at: web apps. We know the technologies well, we have a great development environ

by tomkin 14y ago

"Eventually we came to the conclusion that we should stick with what we’re good at: web apps. We know the technologies well, we have a great development environment and workflow, we can control the release cycle, and everyone at 37signals can do the work. It’s what we already do, just on a smaller screen. We all loved our smaller screens so we were eager to dive in. Plus, since WebKit-based browsers were making their way to the webOS and Blackberry platforms too, our single web-app would eventually run on just about every popular smartphone platform.", Jason Fried, http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2761-launch-basecamp-mobile http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2761-launch-basecamp-mobile So, should we expect 37signals to ditch "bootstrapping" over VC-funded startups soon? Let me be clear, I'm not out to troll 37signals. But here's the thing, if you claim a superior ideology, sell that ideology on paperback and then go against your own methodology, you're going to get some feedback. You can't claim that everyone is a troll, or a "cesspool" whenever people confront these ideas - especially when you're selling them for $.

marknutter 14y ago
You couldn't possibly have read the article. They took a hybrid approach, which means that the vast majority of the app is still written in html/css/javascript. "The page stacking behavior and navigation menus are native while the rest of the screens are web views." - straight from the article. So a more apt analogy than yours might be "we should expect 37signals to continue bootstrapping but also take a small loan from a bank to cover short term expenses".
- tomkin 14y ago
  I did read the article. Both of them, actually. It was clear that most of the app is HTML5, CSS, JS. As originally stated in their previous post, they aren't keen on developing for multiple platforms natively. What they have released goes against the "write once, run anywhere" message that they've been selling for years. I'm quiet familiar with the tech stack they are developing on and so I know that while most is HTML5, there is definitely a development cost if they choose to go cross-platform. It's not as simple as you're alluding.
  - dave1619 14y ago
    You can make an argument that 37 Signals is still keeping with their web app philosophy. For their new iPhone app, it's a web app with an advanced native wrapper & navigation functions.
  - marknutter 14y ago
    Even with straight web browsers it's never 100% "write once, run anywhere" as any good web developer will know. You will always need to account for the idiosyncrasies of every browser, screen size, and system, and in the case of 37 Signals' new basecamp app, I see it as being no different. They most likely needed to gain access to some native apis and take advantage of a more reliable method of animating the page swipes. And re-read your first post. You are suggesting that 37 Signals has done a 180 degree about-face, which is really unfair especially since you do actually understand the tech.
    - tomkin 14y ago
      I'm not suggesting a 180 degree about-face. And if we were talking about a company that didn't sell philosophy in the form of books and blogs, my point would have much less relevance. > as any good web developer will know. Am I missing something here? Pretty sure I haven't written 2 books, decrying overhead and the ills of appeasement. 37signals have 2 books (which I've read) that clearly illustrate why you should avoid scope/feature-creep – especially for the cost of satisfying a few people. The avoidance of a native app followed this lineage. I've watched the slow, articulated steps from "bootstrapping", Jeff Bezos, "this is different because X", etc. It's all very well and good, but you've charged people $. Like any customer, expectations are there. So I am to ignore hundreds of pages of text because we all don't have the books in front of us right now for reference? My overarching point is, if you're going to sell me an ideology - stay with it.
      - marknutter 14y ago
        "So, should we expect 37signals to ditch "bootstrapping" over VC-funded startups soon?" I don't know how anybody could interpret this as anything but a complete about-face. Ditch being the key word. For your analogy to make sense, 37 Signals would have had to ditch html/css/javascript as their main stack for the mobile app, which they clearly did not.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
trustfundbaby 14y ago
So glad you posted this, I bookmarked that post exactly 106 weeks ago, and remember it well. especially this part > So we stopped and thought about it for a bit. Do we want to have to hire an iOS developer and an Android developer? That’s a lot of specialization, and we’re usually anti-specialization when it comes to development. I don't mind it when people change their minds about something, its a sign of intelligence, but if you're going to do it after having taken such a hard stance against the position you are now in favor of, at least do the intellectually honest thing and at least say "Yeah, we weren't in favor of this before, but we changed our minds. here's why" instead of acting like it never happened.
- tomkin 14y ago
  This. If I could replace my original post with yours, I would. This is exactly what I was trying to say.

by tomkin 14y ago

marknutter 14y ago

You couldn't possibly have read the article. They took a hybrid approach, which means that the vast majority of the app is still written in html/css/javascript. "The page stacking behavior and navigation menus are native while the rest of the screens are web views." - straight from the article. So a more apt analogy than yours might be "we should expect 37signals to continue bootstrapping but also take a small loan from a bank to cover short term expenses".

tomkin 14y ago
I did read the article. Both of them, actually. It was clear that most of the app is HTML5, CSS, JS. As originally stated in their previous post, they aren't keen on developing for multiple platforms natively. What they have released goes against the "write once, run anywhere" message that they've been selling for years. I'm quiet familiar with the tech stack they are developing on and so I know that while most is HTML5, there is definitely a development cost if they choose to go cross-platform. It's not as simple as you're alluding.
- dave1619 14y ago
  You can make an argument that 37 Signals is still keeping with their web app philosophy. For their new iPhone app, it's a web app with an advanced native wrapper & navigation functions.
- marknutter 14y ago
  Even with straight web browsers it's never 100% "write once, run anywhere" as any good web developer will know. You will always need to account for the idiosyncrasies of every browser, screen size, and system, and in the case of 37 Signals' new basecamp app, I see it as being no different. They most likely needed to gain access to some native apis and take advantage of a more reliable method of animating the page swipes. And re-read your first post. You are suggesting that 37 Signals has done a 180 degree about-face, which is really unfair especially since you do actually understand the tech.
  - tomkin 14y ago
    I'm not suggesting a 180 degree about-face. And if we were talking about a company that didn't sell philosophy in the form of books and blogs, my point would have much less relevance. > as any good web developer will know. Am I missing something here? Pretty sure I haven't written 2 books, decrying overhead and the ills of appeasement. 37signals have 2 books (which I've read) that clearly illustrate why you should avoid scope/feature-creep – especially for the cost of satisfying a few people. The avoidance of a native app followed this lineage. I've watched the slow, articulated steps from "bootstrapping", Jeff Bezos, "this is different because X", etc. It's all very well and good, but you've charged people $. Like any customer, expectations are there. So I am to ignore hundreds of pages of text because we all don't have the books in front of us right now for reference? My overarching point is, if you're going to sell me an ideology - stay with it.
    - marknutter 14y ago
      "So, should we expect 37signals to ditch "bootstrapping" over VC-funded startups soon?" I don't know how anybody could interpret this as anything but a complete about-face. Ditch being the key word. For your analogy to make sense, 37 Signals would have had to ditch html/css/javascript as their main stack for the mobile app, which they clearly did not.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

trustfundbaby 14y ago

So glad you posted this, I bookmarked that post exactly 106 weeks ago, and remember it well. especially this part > So we stopped and thought about it for a bit. Do we want to have to hire an iOS developer and an Android developer? That’s a lot of specialization, and we’re usually anti-specialization when it comes to development. I don't mind it when people change their minds about something, its a sign of intelligence, but if you're going to do it after having taken such a hard stance against the position you are now in favor of, at least do the intellectually honest thing and at least say "Yeah, we weren't in favor of this before, but we changed our minds. here's why" instead of acting like it never happened.

tomkin 14y ago
This. If I could replace my original post with yours, I would. This is exactly what I was trying to say.