4 ms·

Interesting excerpt about a bank's approach to physical robberies: "In July 2009 a teller at a Key Bank branch in Seattle pursued a would-be robber after a bot

by quasque 14y ago

Interesting excerpt about a bank's approach to physical robberies: "In July 2009 a teller at a Key Bank branch in Seattle pursued a would-be robber after a botched hold-up attempt (Seattle Times, Aug. 1, 2009). He leapt over the counter, chased the man for several blocks, knocked him down, and held him until the police arrived. Two days later Key Bank fired the teller. He had violated long-standing bank policy to cooperate in every way and never resist a robbery. The reason for this policy, we suggest, is that banks understand a very simple principle: fear is bad for business. It is far better to comply with the demand than to risk a brawl, or a gunfight in the bank lobby. No bank wants the perception that they valued money more than customer and employee safety. The $40 million that traditional bank robbers in the US steal per year (FBI Bank Crime Statistics) is entirely manageable."

sp332 14y ago
This is true of a lot of stores. Last year a convenience store employee was fired for getting a gun from his truck to fend off a robber. If an employee gets shot "on the job", the store has to pay disability etc.
patio11 14y ago
No bank wants the perception... It's even simpler than that: no bank, and more importantly, no insurance company which carries banks as clients, wants to defend or settle a lawsuit alleging wrongful death through negligence of a would-be hero bank employee. The predicted loss of a bank robbery is high four figures. A wrongful death lawsuit would cost six or seven figures. This suggests a simple strategy which works fine: invest in the low-hanging fruit for physical security, comply with robbers, and pay for robberies out of the petty cash.
- rdl 14y ago
  That works in places with relatively developed legal systems and enough police and prosecution to eventually catch most bank robbers. Otherwise, there's an endless stream of people coming in, grabbing $10k, and leaving. In the third world, I've seen banks with military/police with automatic weapons set up outside banks, or private security at the same level. (also, in these places, liability in the event of wrongful death is lower (or, by outsourcing to the government, you get to take advantage of sovereign immunity), and there is more cash on-site)
  - rmc 14y ago
    you get to take advantage of sovereign immunity Not all countries have that./
  - MichaelGG 14y ago
    Correct - if you have adequate response, you need less prevention. In Central America, my house is fully encased in steel bars (in addition to a wall), so you'll need to spend a bit of time and noise getting in. And we have 24/7 armed guards on rotation, and the entire subdivision is walled off with ~15-20 foot gates. A friend I know consulted on a few bank robbery cases and reviewed the security videos. The firepower the criminals would bring in was astounding. Big long machine gun (not rifle) type things. I believe I read reports of grenades/RPG or something, too. Whereas in the states, none of the places I've lived would take much more than a pointed stick to get in.
    - DigitalJack 14y ago
      It's an interesting situation. I think I'd rather bank robbers had a stick than an RPG. Of course, ideally there would be no bank robbers.
  - caf 14y ago
    I wonder if there's two equilibria here - at low levels of robbery, there's a Nash equilibrium (law enforcement and robbers as predator/prey). However, because there's a limit on how much police and prosecution resources can ultimately be increased, eventually the robberies overwhelm law enforcement and you reach an equilibrium at a high level of robbery limited only by the availability of potential robbers.
- isleyaardvark 14y ago
  >The predicted loss of a bank robbery is high four figures. Having worked as a bank teller, that figure is much, much lower. Often they'll only get away with a couple of hundred dollars. Otherwise you're right. I think a lot of people still have the romantic picture of Bonnie & Clyde or Hollywood style movies like Heat. The reality is that bank robbers nowadays are idiots. They're high on crack or otherwise don't know what they're doing. They are dumb. All bank robberies are investigated by the FBI, and these guys get caught. This isn't just fear for the customers or perception, it's a dangerous situation where the loss is really not that great. Meanwhile a teller that tries to act like a hero could get himself or others shot, over a couple of hundred dollars.
  - patio11 14y ago
    Having worked as a bank teller, that figure is much, much lower. So this claim surprised me -- I'm always willing to be wrong, but didn't think I was here -- so I went bouncing around in my backfiles to find the statistic I had quoted off the cuff. It turns out, after following a few citations in papers, that the FBI keeps fairly accessible info on this. http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/bank-crime-statistics-2011/bank-crime-statistics-2011 http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/bank-crime-st... $7.5k per incident, give or take.
    - lifeisstillgood 14y ago
      That is a fascinating set of stats - thank you :-) * No-one gets up early on a Monday to rob a bank, * 1 in 10 bank robberies leave without a penny - one in ten ! * Perps die a lot more than anyone else. * They only identify (catch?) 50% - but incredibly 95% of robbers can have their race identified (doesn't anyone wear masks anymore?) * There is a high number (78% of those caught) of first time bank robbers. (Then again that might be obvious) Well they can all go on my list of things I did not know yesterday.
      - chc 14y ago
        > They only identify (catch?) 50% - but incredibly 95% of robbers can have their race identified (doesn't anyone wear masks anymore?) A ski mask or similar does not necessarily obscure all racially identifying characteristics (e.g. you can see skin color, eye color, eye shape and often pick up the gist of bone structure — as well as hear their voice if they speak).
leepowers 14y ago
This policy is just common sense - it applies to bank tellers, the gal minding the till at a coffee shop, the checkout grocer, the gas station attendant, etc. When someone attempts to physically steal from your business do not escalate. The risk of death or bodily injury is too great. Business assets can be insured against loss; human life can not.

by quasque 14y ago

sp332 14y ago

This is true of a lot of stores. Last year a convenience store employee was fired for getting a gun from his truck to fend off a robber. If an employee gets shot "on the job", the store has to pay disability etc.

patio11 14y ago

No bank wants the perception... It's even simpler than that: no bank, and more importantly, no insurance company which carries banks as clients, wants to defend or settle a lawsuit alleging wrongful death through negligence of a would-be hero bank employee. The predicted loss of a bank robbery is high four figures. A wrongful death lawsuit would cost six or seven figures. This suggests a simple strategy which works fine: invest in the low-hanging fruit for physical security, comply with robbers, and pay for robberies out of the petty cash.

rdl 14y ago
That works in places with relatively developed legal systems and enough police and prosecution to eventually catch most bank robbers. Otherwise, there's an endless stream of people coming in, grabbing $10k, and leaving. In the third world, I've seen banks with military/police with automatic weapons set up outside banks, or private security at the same level. (also, in these places, liability in the event of wrongful death is lower (or, by outsourcing to the government, you get to take advantage of sovereign immunity), and there is more cash on-site)
- rmc 14y ago
  you get to take advantage of sovereign immunity Not all countries have that./
- MichaelGG 14y ago
  Correct - if you have adequate response, you need less prevention. In Central America, my house is fully encased in steel bars (in addition to a wall), so you'll need to spend a bit of time and noise getting in. And we have 24/7 armed guards on rotation, and the entire subdivision is walled off with ~15-20 foot gates. A friend I know consulted on a few bank robbery cases and reviewed the security videos. The firepower the criminals would bring in was astounding. Big long machine gun (not rifle) type things. I believe I read reports of grenades/RPG or something, too. Whereas in the states, none of the places I've lived would take much more than a pointed stick to get in.
  - DigitalJack 14y ago
    It's an interesting situation. I think I'd rather bank robbers had a stick than an RPG. Of course, ideally there would be no bank robbers.
- caf 14y ago
  I wonder if there's two equilibria here - at low levels of robbery, there's a Nash equilibrium (law enforcement and robbers as predator/prey). However, because there's a limit on how much police and prosecution resources can ultimately be increased, eventually the robberies overwhelm law enforcement and you reach an equilibrium at a high level of robbery limited only by the availability of potential robbers.
isleyaardvark 14y ago
>The predicted loss of a bank robbery is high four figures. Having worked as a bank teller, that figure is much, much lower. Often they'll only get away with a couple of hundred dollars. Otherwise you're right. I think a lot of people still have the romantic picture of Bonnie & Clyde or Hollywood style movies like Heat. The reality is that bank robbers nowadays are idiots. They're high on crack or otherwise don't know what they're doing. They are dumb. All bank robberies are investigated by the FBI, and these guys get caught. This isn't just fear for the customers or perception, it's a dangerous situation where the loss is really not that great. Meanwhile a teller that tries to act like a hero could get himself or others shot, over a couple of hundred dollars.
- patio11 14y ago
  Having worked as a bank teller, that figure is much, much lower. So this claim surprised me -- I'm always willing to be wrong, but didn't think I was here -- so I went bouncing around in my backfiles to find the statistic I had quoted off the cuff. It turns out, after following a few citations in papers, that the FBI keeps fairly accessible info on this. http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/bank-crime-statistics-2011/bank-crime-statistics-2011 http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/bank-crime-st... $7.5k per incident, give or take.
  - lifeisstillgood 14y ago
    That is a fascinating set of stats - thank you :-) * No-one gets up early on a Monday to rob a bank, * 1 in 10 bank robberies leave without a penny - one in ten ! * Perps die a lot more than anyone else. * They only identify (catch?) 50% - but incredibly 95% of robbers can have their race identified (doesn't anyone wear masks anymore?) * There is a high number (78% of those caught) of first time bank robbers. (Then again that might be obvious) Well they can all go on my list of things I did not know yesterday.
    - chc 14y ago
      > They only identify (catch?) 50% - but incredibly 95% of robbers can have their race identified (doesn't anyone wear masks anymore?) A ski mask or similar does not necessarily obscure all racially identifying characteristics (e.g. you can see skin color, eye color, eye shape and often pick up the gist of bone structure — as well as hear their voice if they speak).

leepowers 14y ago

This policy is just common sense - it applies to bank tellers, the gal minding the till at a coffee shop, the checkout grocer, the gas station attendant, etc. When someone attempts to physically steal from your business do not escalate. The risk of death or bodily injury is too great. Business assets can be insured against loss; human life can not.