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Sure, there should be room for jokes of all kinds: at a standup comedy show, in private among friends and family, etc. We "all" laugh at jokes that are funny u

Sure, there should be room for jokes of all kinds: at a standup comedy show, in private among friends and family, etc. We "all" laugh at jokes that are funny until we hear one that "isn't so funny" because it targets something painful in us. For example, I'm pretty damn tired of all jokes about Balkans, ex-Yugoslavia, Serbia, etc. A lot of them are even true, but after several wars and a bombing campaign from NATO and leaving the country because I feel deserve a future denied to me by choices of previous generations, let's just say that I can't appreciate that particular humor anymore. Now, imagine being a woman. Imagine growing up with TV cartoons grooming you to become a princess, a fashion model or, if you failed at that, a housewife. Imagine getting only a certain kind of gifts for birthday, in certain colors. Imagine people paying more attention to your breasts than what you're saying to them. And then imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid. Would you really find a sexist joke funny at a conference?

jimzvz 14y ago
Now, imagine being a man. Imagine growing up with TV cartoons grooming you to become a superhero, a movie star, if you failed at that, an office worker. Imagine getting only a certain kind of gifts for birthday, in certain colors. Imagine people paying more attention to your wallet than what you're saying to them. And then imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid. Would you really find a sexist joke funny on the view? By the way, I don't think that it is appropriate to show people in underwear at a conference unless it is relevant. I am just pointing out that what you said could easily be applied to men.
- CodeMage 14y ago
  No, it can't be easily applied to men. Where it falls apart is the "imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid" part. Our society is not equally sexist to men and women. Not even close. I recommend reading "The Distress of the Privileged": http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-distress-of-the-privileged/ http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-distress-of-the-privile... I've seen your other comments and I think you're consistently overreacting. Scalzi's essay is there to simply introduce a metaphor to explain why straight white males, on the average, have it easier than other groups. It's not there to condone or promote sexism (or racism or any other unfair discrimination) towards straight white males. If your whole point is "well, it's not right to be sexist towards men either", then I agree with you completely, but the relevance of your claim is questionable in this discussion because: 1) nobody originally claimed it's right to be sexist to men and 2) sexism towards women is so much more prevalent, especially in our industry, that it's a problem that has higher priority than sexism towards men.
  - jimzvz 14y ago
    >Where it falls apart is the "imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid" part. Please explain to me how boys do not hear sexist jokes towards men but girls hear sexist jokes towards women. >Our society is not equally sexist to men and women. I never claimed that it was but I am sick of this complete denial that sexism towards men is an issue and is arguably as big an issue as sexism towards women. >Scalzi's essay is there to simply introduce a metaphor to explain why straight white males, on the average, have it easier than other groups. Yes but Scalzi's metaphor does nothing to explain "why" at all. There is no evidence presented. It just presents a metaphor that explains what he thinks is going on not what causes it or if it even exists in the way he thinks it does. Is there some part of it that I am missing? >It's not there to condone or promote sexism (or racism or any other unfair discrimination) towards straight white males. It could be argued that constantly telling men (and boys) that they have it easier without presenting evidence of specific areas where this is true is sexist as well as damaging to both men and women. >If your whole point is "well, it's not right to be sexist towards men either", then I agree with you completely, but the relevance of your claim is questionable in this discussion My original comment was in reply to klodolph's assertion that sexism towards men is so far fetched that one needs to imagine some alternate reality to our own where sexism towards men exists in order for a man to understand sexism. My argument is that it does exist in this reality and it is far more wide spread than people would have you believe. Klodolph claims that I misunderstood their use of this alternate reality argument so that makes my original comment pointless. Subsequently, halostatue replied with an extremely frustrating comment that suggested that any issue a man has with regards to sexism is always inconsequential because some author wrote a blog post where he claims that men always have it easier to anyone else in the same position. Not only does that make very little sense but condoning the dismissal of sexism towards men in such a way is sexist in itself. I replied to your post because I am tired of this belief that men need to imagine what sexism feels like in order to understand it. We don't need to imagine what sexism feels like because we experience it all of the time, just like women do. >1) nobody originally claimed it's right to be sexist to men Yes nobody claimed that it's right to be sexist towards men but no one seems to acknowledge that it even exists on the scale that it does. >sexism towards women is so much more prevalent, especially in our industry, that it's a problem that has higher priority than sexism towards men. This is difficult. I honestly do not know which type of sexism is more prevalent but I feel that that is irrelevant because sexism needs to be seen as a single issue, not as two different issues. In order to get rid of sexism you need to do it in a non sexist way otherwise, you are merely shifting sexism from one group to another. Perpetrating sexism towards men in order to solve (or while solving) sexism towards women does nothing but but cause anger and frustration among men and women.

jimzvz 14y ago

Now, imagine being a man. Imagine growing up with TV cartoons grooming you to become a superhero, a movie star, if you failed at that, an office worker. Imagine getting only a certain kind of gifts for birthday, in certain colors. Imagine people paying more attention to your wallet than what you're saying to them. And then imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid. Would you really find a sexist joke funny on the view? By the way, I don't think that it is appropriate to show people in underwear at a conference unless it is relevant. I am just pointing out that what you said could easily be applied to men.

CodeMage 14y ago
No, it can't be easily applied to men. Where it falls apart is the "imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid" part. Our society is not equally sexist to men and women. Not even close. I recommend reading "The Distress of the Privileged": http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-distress-of-the-privileged/ http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-distress-of-the-privile... I've seen your other comments and I think you're consistently overreacting. Scalzi's essay is there to simply introduce a metaphor to explain why straight white males, on the average, have it easier than other groups. It's not there to condone or promote sexism (or racism or any other unfair discrimination) towards straight white males. If your whole point is "well, it's not right to be sexist towards men either", then I agree with you completely, but the relevance of your claim is questionable in this discussion because: 1) nobody originally claimed it's right to be sexist to men and 2) sexism towards women is so much more prevalent, especially in our industry, that it's a problem that has higher priority than sexism towards men.
- jimzvz 14y ago
  >Where it falls apart is the "imagine hearing sexist jokes since you were a kid" part. Please explain to me how boys do not hear sexist jokes towards men but girls hear sexist jokes towards women. >Our society is not equally sexist to men and women. I never claimed that it was but I am sick of this complete denial that sexism towards men is an issue and is arguably as big an issue as sexism towards women. >Scalzi's essay is there to simply introduce a metaphor to explain why straight white males, on the average, have it easier than other groups. Yes but Scalzi's metaphor does nothing to explain "why" at all. There is no evidence presented. It just presents a metaphor that explains what he thinks is going on not what causes it or if it even exists in the way he thinks it does. Is there some part of it that I am missing? >It's not there to condone or promote sexism (or racism or any other unfair discrimination) towards straight white males. It could be argued that constantly telling men (and boys) that they have it easier without presenting evidence of specific areas where this is true is sexist as well as damaging to both men and women. >If your whole point is "well, it's not right to be sexist towards men either", then I agree with you completely, but the relevance of your claim is questionable in this discussion My original comment was in reply to klodolph's assertion that sexism towards men is so far fetched that one needs to imagine some alternate reality to our own where sexism towards men exists in order for a man to understand sexism. My argument is that it does exist in this reality and it is far more wide spread than people would have you believe. Klodolph claims that I misunderstood their use of this alternate reality argument so that makes my original comment pointless. Subsequently, halostatue replied with an extremely frustrating comment that suggested that any issue a man has with regards to sexism is always inconsequential because some author wrote a blog post where he claims that men always have it easier to anyone else in the same position. Not only does that make very little sense but condoning the dismissal of sexism towards men in such a way is sexist in itself. I replied to your post because I am tired of this belief that men need to imagine what sexism feels like in order to understand it. We don't need to imagine what sexism feels like because we experience it all of the time, just like women do. >1) nobody originally claimed it's right to be sexist to men Yes nobody claimed that it's right to be sexist towards men but no one seems to acknowledge that it even exists on the scale that it does. >sexism towards women is so much more prevalent, especially in our industry, that it's a problem that has higher priority than sexism towards men. This is difficult. I honestly do not know which type of sexism is more prevalent but I feel that that is irrelevant because sexism needs to be seen as a single issue, not as two different issues. In order to get rid of sexism you need to do it in a non sexist way otherwise, you are merely shifting sexism from one group to another. Perpetrating sexism towards men in order to solve (or while solving) sexism towards women does nothing but but cause anger and frustration among men and women.