12 ms·
Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing
- hartator 14y ago3 weeks ago, they were a girl JS hackathon where we work. They spend more time doing ballons, decorations and girly stuff, than actually code. We were making jokes about that! (ie: going to ask them to do some sewing for us instead of that!) I do not feel guilty or sorry to have make fun of these girls. The best way to knock down racism/sexism/discrimination is to make achievements that great that change people mind. Ayn Rand or Marie Curie are great examples. Moreover, fighting against the expression of discrimination is unproductive, you can make them shut up but they won't never think less.
- atc 14y ago> A talk at a conference showing girls in bikinis. An API presentation from a sponsor featuring ladies in bras. A demo at a hack day with a slide of women in underwear. A business model canvas workshop using a strip club as an example to illustrate the tool. Do any of those match the definition of [sexism](https://www.google.com/search?q=define+sexism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=iceweasel-a&channel=fflb https://www.google.com/search?q=define+sexism&ie=utf-8&#...)? > sex·ism > Noun > Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically > against women, on the basis of sex. I bet this is part of the problem: we don't really know how to define (and thus identify) sexism properly.
- healsdata 14y agoExcept, like most words, sexism has multiple definitions and you've conveniently plucked the one that makes your point. Here's the second from Merriam-Webster: "behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex" These behaviors continue to push the idea that women are eye candy.
- atc 14y agoThey are eye candy. Just like men are. The problem is when the target (man or woman) is isolated to purely that role.
- af3 14y agoI don't think I will speak up if I see a stripper for free... yeah!
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- mkohlmyr 14y agoThe broad reach of the quote made me react negatively for a second but what the blog post is actually about is perfectly reasonable and in my opinion necessary criticism of this industry. Sexism in the right context can be funny, as can many horrible things. As part of a slideshow for a workshop or as part of a conference speaking engagement is hardly ever the right context.
- rmc 14y agoFor those who think it doesn't matter, and that there is no sexism and that women aren't be discriminated against due to the pure fact of their gender, be aware that there have been double blinded scientific studies that show that if you change the name of a CV/resume to a female name when applying for science jobs, they don't get as much/as good offers. If this was question about whether a new drug worked or not, the issue would be settled. Ergo, gender bias against women exists. http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109 http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109
- VMG 14y agoIsn't that a separate issue? I doubt that the speakers intend to put down women, they just lacked the insight that their comedic material makes some people feel uncomfortable.
- diego_moita 14y agoI don't think so (I am a man); in the end it all boils down to excluding women. My 4 year old boy goes to a day-care where one of the care givers is a man. I know of at least a mother that refused to leave her kid there scared that he was a sexual predator. The same prejudice is faced by male obstetricians. In the end, whenever you stigmatize a profession as belonging for a specific gender you do sexism, doesn't matter how you do it and who you target.
- VMG 14y agoI just can't see how making jokes that include sexual imagery are at the expense of women. Crude? yes - inappropriate? absolutely - funny? not in my mind - "against" women? I don't understand how. I make this distinction because I think about an old professors of mine who stupidly would try to make women welcome by saying things like "Nice to have such a beautiful young lady here". His intent was to make them feel better, but he didn't get that it doesn't work that way.
- king_jester 14y ago
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- fireflash38 14y agoI fail to see how that is sexist. They aren't implying that their support team is women. It's a play on words. Perhaps they should have a jock strap there instead?
- theorique 14y agoBra: hey, this is sexist, you're making me think about breasts. Jock strap: hey, this is sexist, you're making me think about testicles. Edgy humor is risky because someone will always be offended when you tread in these areas.
- kmfrk 14y agoJock straps are more about protection than support, though? I say that as an utterly unathletic person, so I could be wrong.
- theorique 14y agoIt's also called an athletic supporter and without a cup, it's used to prevent the male genitals from bouncing around in an unhealthy way. With a cup, it's meant for protecting the male genitals from impact in contact sports like hockey or football.
- kmfrk 14y agoTIL. Thanks. I think. ;)
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- ryandvm 14y agoMeh. The world would be a better place if people stopped looking for ways to be offended.
- flexie 14y agoPeople laugh when they hear a "sexist" joke because it's funny. Maybe gender related jokes don't have a place at conferences and work places - I am not sure - but there should be room for jokes about genders somewhere, right? I mean, where does this political correctness stop?
- kmfrk 14y agoI am open to the idea that openly sexist jokes can be funny, but in those cases, they are funny, because they are explicitly, egregiously offensive, and the laughter ensues because of the awkwardness this creates. British humour (Jimmy Carr) is based on offending, and Louis C.K. have almost made careers out of this. Ricky Gervais did something similar, when he hosted the Golden Globes. The point of his shtick was to make people feel uncomfortable at an event that usually occasions insufferably back-patting and ego-stroking where people hand each other awards and accolades for being amazing, infallible human beings. The problem arises when sexist jokes aren't regarded as intentionally offensive, and the discourse is internalized to the point where sexism is regarded as being funny, because it's sexism. I don't see a lot of "funny" racism - if any - in the industry, and I think it's because we've come much farther, when it relates to race - and to some degree sexuality as well. Comedian Stewart Lee is good at describing this mentality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgABbHPdwH4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgABbHPdwH4.
- ZoFreX 14y ago> but there should be room for jokes about genders somewhere, right? Why?
- kolektiv 14y agoFor the same reason that there should be jokes about pretty much everything. They're a form of human communication and expression which can be very valuable to group dynamics. It is perfectly possible to joke about horrific things without intending to condone or support those things. That said, the place for these jokes is unlikely to be in groups of people you don't know at tech conferences. That's insensitive, rude and often intimidating - so don't.
- 14y ago
- ansible 14y agoI don't think its too much to ask for everyone to be more conscious of how we talk publicly. You could spend an extra five minutes replacing that sexist joke with something else less likely to offend half the world's population. The "It was meant to be a joke." line is weak sauce. Man up and admit that you were acting juvenile, and just apologize for your behavior. And try to do better next time.
- ZoFreX 14y agoIt's encouraging to see that, with polite feedback, many people change their deck to be less offensive. What I find interesting and scary is that some people will put far, far more effort into defending their choice than it would take to change it to something less offensive (and dare I say it, funnier - most "jokes" that rely on sexism are old and tired)
- monochromatic 14y agoQ: How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb? A: That is NOT funny. In seriousness though, she sort of does have a point. Women at these types of thing are pretty outnumbered, and making them uncomfortable with stuff like this isn't very... gentlemanly.
- 9392732 14y agoI find it offensive that you are stereotyping a way of behaving (being gentlemanly) by someone's sex. Delete this comment you sexist pig
- monochromatic 14y agoI still hold doors for women too. Time to take me out back and shoot me.
- str8gk 14y agoOMG literal LoL
- danso 14y agoBefore this devolves into a how-uptight-is-this-person-really? discussion, I was impressed with the OP author's levelheaded, friendly response to someone who reportedly made, IMO, a pretty egregious slide: https://twitter.com/johannakoll/status/300645432013516800 https://twitter.com/johannakoll/status/300645432013516800
- danielhellier 14y ago> "We are hiring fashion interns" and the photo on the slide shows girls in underwear. Disappointing. (Upside: quite a few girls at #seedhack)" The word sexist is going to lose all meaning if people throw it about like this.
- danso 14y agoSo what is lacking from that slide, as the OP depicts it, that disqualifies the OP interpreting it as sexist?
- xentronium 14y agoI have to say, I was not sure, but this slide was very mean.
- alan_cx 14y agoI am very, very sorry, but you cant use a phrase like "using a strip club as an example to illustrate the tool", and not expect old skool dinosaurs like me not to fall about laughing.
- pc86 14y agoThen we'll all be better off when you go the way of the dinosaurs.
- gerhardi 14y agoIf I happen to think that it is funny, who has the right to say that my opinions or the feelings that the "sexist jokes" bring to my brain are wrong? Obviously one should also try to minimize the amount of content that may possibly cause harm to any number of people in the target audience, but the problem has a very abstract nature going all the way down to how and where to say what to whom and who gets to decide whats right and what's wrong. I often laugh at sexist jokes concerning both men and women. I don't take those jokes personally but I also agree that one has the right to disagree and express their opinions towards the content of different media. (if-by-whiskey?..)
- rmc 14y agoWe're not saying your thoughts & feelings are wrong, just that you shouldn't do it in professional contexts. I find having a wank nice. Doesn't mean I should do it at a presentation.
- Okvivi 14y agoMaybe a good rule for presenters would be to imagine what happens if they replace the photo of girls in bikinis with a photo of guys in bikinis. If that makes the presentation awkward, then bikinis are not the answer.
- theorique 14y agoMake it equal opportunity - scantily clad girls on left half of the slide and scantily clad guys on the right half. Then everyone's happy - straight girls, straight guys, gay girls, gay guys. Win-Win.
- vbx12 14y agoAll those examples sounded perfectly harmless, I wonder what sort of humor would be acceptable to the author? It's difficult to make a joke which no-one finds offensive, if you follow these complaints to their logical conclusion conferences would be very dry and dull.
- isuckcocks 14y ago>Sexism is not funny Fuck you, i think it's hilarious.
- geertj76 14y agoThere is a difference between sexism and discrimination. I love a good sexist joke once in a while. But things should be balanced. If a presenter would make fun of men and women in equal amounts, I would not be offended personally. I would have a problem with a presenter that would only make fun of women and not of men. That would be very similar to discriminating based on other properties such as race or religion.
- angular 14y ago"A talk at a conference showing girls in bikinis." ... I can't wait until I see a slide of a guy in a bathing suit so I can come cry to the internet.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- bigsassy 14y agoWe see these kind of stories on Hacker News kinda regularly. And you'd think that it's getting a little ridiculous. But time and again, we still have people in our community that just don't get it. So that's why I upvoted this article. Let's all keep drilling this into our community until it finally sticks.
- oellegaard 14y agoShowing a woman (or a man) in underwear is not sexism. It is btw equally funny no matter what gender it is. The logic applied in this article is equal to saying that it is racist to display a white man on your presentation, because then you are obviously promoting racism. Now, I completely agree that sexism is a bad thing - but come on, this is not really sexism.
- halostatue 14y agoUnless you're selling underwear or sex…it is. You should carefully consider whether {sex,gender,race,religion,politics,…} is germane to the discussion that you're trying to engender with your presentation. If you're a fashion designer talking about your latest underwear fashion? Go for it. If you're presenting about gender issues? Go for it—but be careful that your slide materials don't undermine the message. If you're talking about a web API? You've got to be kidding me if you ever think that such a thing is ever appropriate. No one is saying that you can't have fun with your presentation slide deck—one of my favourite slides that I ever made was a for a RubyConf (San Diego, I believe) where I was talking about how to use PDF::Writer for presentations…and I presented the following code: def takahashi # ... end The response I got from the audience was worth it—and it was completely appropriate (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takahashi_method http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takahashi_method for why).
- oellegaard 14y agoSo what if you are selling fitness subscriptions? Check out this video and tell me it is not funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuF4_cWghGY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuF4_cWghGY (no women inside..) He says something like: "After I started in FitnessDK i got so popular, that the only way I got get some alone-time is to take a fish-shower". As long as you don't put a specific gender in a certain role or use them to show that the other gender is superior, I don't think showing a human body is sexism.
- halostatue 14y agoI have three responses to that: 1. That's an ad, not a presentation at a conference. There are different "rules" for ads, but even those have to comply with local norms and expectations (it would not, for example, be aired in the U.S.). 2. It's mildly funny, yes—but only because you provided a translation. It's also sexist and people could legitimately find it offensive. The ad is a variation on the themes represented in the various AXE Effect advertisements (e.g., this product/service has made me so irresistible to women that I have to do this other outrageous thing). It sets up unrealistic expectations among both men and women. It's not sexist because it uses a nude, it's sexist because of the attitude. 3. Unless you are (a) at an advertising conference talking about the use of gender normatives and selling with sexual promises or (b) at a fitness conference talking about effectively attracting the male 18-29 demographic…this ad and images from it would be completely inappropriate for use in presentation materials. Even if (a) and (b) are true…it would be worth considering whether the ad is one to use in your presentation. The problem is one of time, place, and appropriateness of the material to the audience. Even in Denmark, I suspect this ad would be criticized if it were played in the early afternoon while children are watching after-school television. Without trying to generalize too much, a lot of guys don't get it because they think that there's no such thing as too much attention from someone whose gender you're attracted to. They think that they'd love to get catcalls from random (usually female) strangers about how toned their abs are, etc. If that sort of thing happened in real life to guys on a regular basis…it would get old fast. (Which is sort of the backhanded point of the ad you pointed to. It just doesn't happen that way, and women by and large don't need to try to do anything to encounter creeps in the tech world or fandom or…)
- nicholassmith 14y agoWhen a security bug appears there's an argument made about responsible disclosure and publicising the crap out of it. There's a similar argument for sexism in the tech world, it should be dealt with out in the open so people know there's a problem and can patch it for the next release, but it needs to be done like this. Responsibly and without pitchforks and mob rule, which puts both sides at each others throats.
- vibrant 14y agoThe sexes are different by definition. Girls in bras are very entertaining, and I see no reason not to be happy about them as a man. I wouldn't be so happy to see guys in bras.
- musmax 14y agoFuck me I swear we're living through the wowser apocalypse. http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6605/iron20my20shirtxf1.jpg http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6605/iron20my20shirtxf1.jpg
- NateDad 14y agoIf you don't mind people thinking you're sexist, go for it. Otherwise, don't be an idiot, and make a different joke. Yes, I'm a guy, and yes I make crude jokes in front of my close friends on occasion. But I'd never do it in front of someone who might think I actually believe what I'm saying. That includes 99.9999999% of humanity.
- seivan 14y agoVery off topic, and will probably be down-voted to oblivion, but... It's funny how people who usually call themselves Product Manager and involve the words lean and "UX" tend not to be software engineers. "UX, agile, lean startup,... Product Manager " I saw twitter, linkedin, posterous, pinterest, flickr but no Github. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5181869 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5181869 "As software engineers, we're a defeated tribe. We work for businessmen, get little respect in comparison to the value we add, and often are pigeonholed into roles that are 3 levels below our creative and intellectual ability. We do most of our work for managers and investors who think we're losers because we don't have their jobs."
- baritalia 14y agoUptight feminist alert... Back to the kitchen.
- jseliger 14y ago>A talk at a conference showing girls in bikinis. An API presentation from a sponsor featuring ladies in bras. A demo at a hack day with a slide of women in underwear. A business model canvas workshop using a strip club as an example to illustrate the tool. These are just a few examples of casual sexism I've experience at (tech) events. Where does sexy end and sexism begin? I too am against sexism (who isn't?), but most Americans appear to find women in limited amounts of clothing sexy; take a look at most women's magazines in the grocery store next time you're there (or, better yet, look through a bunch of Cosmos at some point: someone suggested I do it, and I found the experience highly educational). Sexism in tech and the workplace are real problems, but I don't think a slide with a woman in underwear is a good example. Comparisons between the U.S. and France are often dubious, but reading Elaine Sciolino's La Seduction: How the French Play the Game of Life made me rethink some of the issues Koll describes. Sciolino writes, for example: The game of the sexes also extends deep into the workplace. In the United States, the mildest playfulness during business hours and in a business setting is forbidden; in France, it is encouraged. In American corporations, men are told routinely that they cross the line when they compliment a female employee on the color of her dress or the style of her hair. In France, flirtation is part of the job. (I wrote more about the book here: http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/la-seduction-how-the-french-play-the-game-of-life-elaine-sciolino/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/la-seduction-how-th...). And her experiences in the French workplace appear to be mostly good. It might be that the U.S. and France are too different to compare, but I also don't think that the asexual approach implicitly endorsed here is right or even practical.
- sp332 14y agoIn the examples you gave, there are 2 problems: 1. It reduces women to nothing more than sex objects. Sex isn't just part of the job, but the women's whole reason for being included. 2. Women (and men!) feel like control over their sexuality is being taken away. When a presenter puts up a slide of a stripper, some of the audience will feel uncomfortable just because their sexuality was invoked without their consent.
- jseliger 14y agoInteresting reply, but I'm not convinced that this: "Women (and men!) feel like control over their sexuality is being taken away" is true. Again, see Sciolino as a counter-example.
- thejteam 14y agoJokes are one thing. Good jokes make a point without being demeaning. Good jokes are intelligent. Sexist jokes can be funny and good. But the examples given in the article are not even jokes, much less good jokes. They are examples of behavior that only objectify women. This is what needs to stop. A former female coworker of mine had no problem dealing with sexual jokes around the office despite being a modest and conservative person. She just rolled with it. But she called me up to complain one time because she was at a conference where the highlight was lining up to get autographs from the swimsuit models dressed in bikinis. Now, there was absolutely no point in including that activity and since she had no interest in getting that autograph it set her apart from her male colleagues unnecessarily. Edit: fixed grammar and punctuation
- Claudus 14y agoReading this post, I probably had the typical 'guy' reaction, which was negative towards the post. Why? Because I've been in situations like the ones described, and I wasn't offended and I feel like I'm being attacked for being in these situations that are outside of my control, and don't bother me personally, and that makes me defensive. I'm not going to disagree that what she's describing is probably sexist, I'm also not going to disagree that she's right when she says this type of thing gets attention. But I am going to disagree that people think "sexism is entertainment". These types of things are done for the "sex" or "shock" value, not for the "sexism". What does that mean? 1) Feel free to fight sexism, but stop trying to end it, it will never happen. Instead, punish it. 2) Stop blaming everyone who happens to be in proximity, it's not my fault, I'm not offended, and honestly I don't care that you are (maybe I'm a jerk, but I'm also not a sexist). Instead, call out the specific offenders, I might actually take your side I didn't feel like I was targeted.
- aredington 14y agoSexism isn't a problem that exists in conferences, it is a problem that is pervasive in the industry surrounding software. In that industry, women are a minority of workers, and they enjoy fewer privileges than their male peers. When a person presents at a conference with material intended to be humorous, but where the humor excludes women, it is adding to the problem that women do not enjoy an equal position with men. It reinforces that this is an industry where men are privileged, and sets an example for others of privileging men. I can't imagine someone publicly defending racist jokes included in a conference in this day and age. Even if it's "just a joke", it excludes members of the audience based on circumstances of their birth. The same applies equally well to sexist jokes which exclude members of the audience based on circumstances of their birth, yet people are willing to publicly defend the choice to be sexist.
- aneth4 14y agoThere seems to be the usual disconnect here between the meaning of sexism and sexual. Sexual references and images can make people uncomfortable and may be inappropriate, but they are not sexist. It's not surprising that in a male dominated field, sexual references are primarily female - this also doesn't make them sexist. Sexist: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." Again, these images may be inappropriate in a professional context, but they are not sexist. In my personal opinion, sexuality is a part of life and sexual references don't bother me. They should be used judiciously and not to the point of distraction, but they are not inherently inappropriate. Others may disagree. Calling sexuality sexist is sexist itself. It implies that sexuality is the domain of one gender, when in fact it is universal.
- str8gk 14y agoOh God, women are so whiny/boring aren't they ... They can zap the fun out of anything ... I'm so fed up of there eternal attempts to ruin everything.
- TeeDub 14y agoMaybe our community has more wide-reaching problems that could also be addressed? Sexist humor strikes me as coming from the same general jackassery that made people mock Heather Arthur's Replace project. I don't think we, as computer scientists /engineers /hackers/etc, have cultivated a positive environment for collaboration or communication... We have plenty of toxic tendencies that should be addressed. (sexism then being one of many things.)
- fab13n 14y ago[this is a tentative explanation, no judgment, neither justification nor condemnation] My impression, as a male who's evolved in several macho environments including high tech, is that the grossest sexist jokes are about males' frustration with gender imbalance, rather than against women. What makes a joke funny? The fact that it's intellectually engaging, or wildly surprising, or that it discharges an existing yet unspeakable tension. 95% of sexist jokes are neither of the two former. The "fun" in sexist jokes shared among brogrammers is that the group rolls itself into the most degrading mediocrity engendered by a frustrated-males-only-attendance, with nobody lecturing them that they ought to behave better, what with their over-education, supposedly progressive social views, genuine interest for the opposite sex etc. To take just one example in the comments here, "We are hiring fashion interns" with underwear girl pictures is simply not funny: no intellectual stimulation, nothing comic nor original here. And it's neither about women (models or professionals) nor about underwear. It's about the crippling level of frustration admitted by making such a lame joke, and by laughing at it. My empirical observation is that when a few women join a male professional setup, sexists jokes quickly vanish, not because people don't dare cracking them, but because they don't feel the need to tell them anymore (IMMV). It nevertheless remains half of a vicious circle keeping women out of some career paths, to the detriment of both genders.
- singular 14y ago>My empirical observation is that when a few women join a male professional setup, sexists jokes quickly vanish, not because people don't dare cracking them, but because they don't feel the need to tell them anymore (IMMV). It nevertheless remains half of a vicious circle keeping women out of some career paths, to the detriment of both genders. Except there are women attending these conferences. Being frustrated about something doesn't make it okay to do something which hurts people and expresses a prejudice. I am personally very frustrated when it comes to women, but it doesn't make it okay for me to try to bully them, because that is what this is plain and simple. Funny how many meandering explanations/justifications are sat in this thread. Quite depressing.
- fab13n 14y ago> Except there are women attending these conferences. The "joker" vents out his frustration, fed by a male daily work environment, in a gender-mixed conference. The result is event more detrimental than when such attitudes are displayed in front of a 100% male attendance indeed. > Being frustrated about something doesn't make it okay [...] I did most certainly not write, nor imply, that it was OK. I just didn't insist more on how bad it was, because there's only so much beating a dead horse can take, and because I didn't think I had anything constructive to add to this truism. > Funny how many meandering explanations/justifications are sat in this thread. Quite depressing. I'm afraid you're getting confused between explanations and justifications; that's probably one of the causes for your depressed feelings.
- TheCapn 14y agoI recall reading this quote recently: "Just because you're offended, it doesn't mean you're right" ― Ricky Gervais Now, I don't feel it is appropriate for the article, but as an overall discussion on political correctness it does. The people that are fighting a legitimate battle against sexism, racism, and other prejudices have a hard time being taken seriously because there is so much noise. When almost every complaint is more about censorship or silencing opposition those who are battling for basic human rights get painted under a broad stroke that belittles their actions and efforts. Again, I'm not saying the author of this article is wrong; I can't even say firmly whether I support it or not, the jury is out on it.
- king_jester 14y ago> The people that are fighting a legitimate battle against sexism, racism, and other prejudices have a hard time being taken seriously because there is so much noise. What exactly is a "legitimate" battle against sexism? The reason why there is so much noise, as you put it, is because these incidents of sexism happen a lot and people are much more able to publish call outs against that sexism that can be see by many people. > Again, I'm not saying the author of this article is wrong; I can't even say firmly whether I support it or not, the jury is out on it. Actually, the jury is in, using women as objects to convey sexy is really sexist, esp. in professional contexts like conferences. Discussion about media representation and women as objects has been ongoing for several decades now.
- illuminate 14y agoI don't laugh at unfunny "jokes" already, perhaps"let's stop tolerating when others buy in" might be more appropriate, if less pithy.
- Jabbles 14y agoI think† the key point many people miss is this: "These are just a few examples..." It's endemic. Everywhere. Each example on its own is a unwelcome irritant, but the repetition and seemingly universal acceptance makes the problem so much worse. O(n) probably... I don't attribute any malice to most of the presenters, "Most of the guys were genuinely sorry and glad I made them aware of the damage they were doing.". No raindrop feels responsible for the flood, and all that. More obviously sexist material is noticed by many more people, and uproar rightfully occurs (http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57434780-256/dell-apologizes-for-hiring-sexist-summit-moderator/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57434780-256/dell-apologiz...). But the continuous, boiling-frog, "just-a-joke" sexism is a big problem. †I don't actually know...
- dutchbrit 14y agoSeriously guys, jokes about female bodily functions are not funny. Period. All "jokes" aside, most jokes target certain groups of people, so are essentially discriminating one way or another. But there's a big difference taking jokes seriously. I laughed when I heard the joke that I mentioned above (only because of the wordplay). Some might find that a bit childish. That being said, I still 'respect' women 100% and see them as equals. And if a girl wants to make a joke about men? Sure, why not? A joke is suppose to be lighthearted and shouldn't be taken serious at all (hence the name 'joke'). But using these 'jokes' at conferences etc... is a massive no-no. It's uncomfortable for the women that are attending. It adds no extra value at all (but sure, feel free to <insert nerd joke here>). Ps. the examples given don't even seem to be funny whatsoever. Sure, the majority of men love checking out 'hot babes', but if women have to watch the same demo, it's just plain weird... And it's not even relevant/professional. The equivalent would be us men, looking at topless hunks from some random TV show during a tech demo. Again, weird (although I'd probably laugh a lot more for some bizarre reason).
- str8gk 14y agohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjIuPSuYSOY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjIuPSuYSOY enufsaid
- tehwalrus 14y ago[comment on the comments here] These threads make me so depressed. HN is normally such a well-informed, polite place. Then someone posts a "sexism exists and is bad" post and suddenly this is a youtube comment thread where wilfully-ignorant people shout at each other (alas, with a layer of smugness because they have superficially analysed the problem, or rather, have analysed how to speak their prejudice while sounding logical.) The contributions on the side of the angels always get more upvotes, but the sheer numbers of those on the other side often seem to drown them out. Boo, I say! Less of this sort of thing!
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- pfortuny 14y agoThose examples are not (only) sexism: they are blatant incompetence at being funny. A good joke is that which appeals to your intelect and is never offensive. Gut-jokes (and offensive ones) are an insult to the attendants' intelligence. If they laugh then they show they deserve that insult.
- kbutler 14y agoThe "Benign Violation Theory" of humor explains this well - basically, that humor results when we simultaneously perceive a violation of "how the world 'ought to be'" and realize that the violation is benign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_of_humor#Benign_Violation_Theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_of_humor#Benign_Violat...). Thus, something one finds funny can be not-funny to another either because it appears dangerous (offense), or because it seems normal (meh). This correlates with how closely or exclusively one feels the "norm" that is violated. It's interesting to analyze why I find jokes funny or offensive (or funny in spite of myself), such as self-deprecating humor, puns, racial/religious/dirty jokes, etc. Although this can explain why some are offended when others attempt humor, it in no way excuses including offensive content - the point is to be sensitive to the feelings and values of others. We should work both to avoid giving offense, and to be tolerant when others offend without intent.
- josefresco 14y agoTo say that only the women in the crowd would be offended by images of other women in underwear, or jokes about strip clubs would be making unfair sexual orientation assumptions about those same women. Maybe they're gay, bisexual or entertained just as much as the guys by seeing this imagery. The author is assuming all women are like her and are offended. That in an of itself is more concerning to me than the lame sexist jokes. Not to mention there was probably some gay guys in the crowd, who probably were more offended by the images than the straight women were.
- klodolph 14y agoThese threads are among the lowest-quality on Hacker News. Everyone has an opinion on sex, and therefore sexism. Let's cover some of the tired old ground: 1. "Jokes are not discrimination." I hate to tell you this, but tasteless jokes are part of the problem. People absorb and internalize their environment. Maybe if I phrase it this way: Why is it that you bombard kids with pictures of women in bikinis and men in lab coats, then wonder why women don't go into tech in spite of their competence? 2. "We should solve actual discrimination, this just isn't important." Sexism is a multifaceted, interconnected beast of many factors. 3. "What if a woman showed a picture of a man in a bikini?" You are not being clever by swapping the genders, this isn't some math problem where you can flip the sign and cancel a bunch of factors out. People are constantly exposed to media which equate the worth of women with their physical attractiveness, so showing a picture of a woman in a bikini leverages decades of social conditioning. It reinforces the idea that women should be evaluated based on cup size rather than the quality of their GitHub repositories. To make an analogy, if you are a man, were you ever stressed out (maybe during your 20s) about whether you were successful enough? Have you ever paid for a date that you couldn't really afford so you could impress a woman? Imagine if you went to a tech conference with tons of women, and they made jokes about men who are poor, and showed pictures of guys with $10k suits driving Audis, joked about never dating someone who wasn't at least a senior VP, and then a tubby, mustachioed woman who hasn't showered approaches you and drunkenly asks if she can see your wallet, and asks how much you make in a year. "I bet it's a lot." She says, thinking it's a compliment. I'd like you all to listen to this last bit. This is a discussion about sexism. It's a proper field of study, like chemistry. It doesn't make non-stick pans, rocket fuel, or methamphetamine. However, just like doing meth doesn't turn you into Walter White, living your life doesn't make you an expert on sexism. Most of you guys I'm guessing have never read a single fucking book on sexism, but you're chiming in with your damn opinions anyway. The reason why Hacker News discussions on Go, tech startups, and prime numbers are so interesting is because Hacker News is filled with experts on those subjects. A reason why the Hacker News threads on sexism are so terrible is because y'all are lazy fuckers who don't know what the hell you're talking about. Owning a penis makes you about as qualified to comment on how pictures of women in bikinis affect women at tech conferences as, say, the fact that I own a bicycle makes me an expert at automobile maintenance. It's the same kind of thinking that leads people to think that they can hold an interesting discussion on philosophy when they ask whether the "red" that you perceive is actually the same as the "blue" that I percieve. Okay, sure, that discussion is worth having, I guess, and if you've never read a book on philosophy in your entire fucking life it might actually cover new ground.
- jack-r-abbit 14y agoThis came up in my HN feed today: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5206245 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5206245 Help me out here. Is this funny? or just ageist, sexist and racist all at the same time? I need to know if I'm supposed to laugh or be offended.