27 ms·

Ready? This is going to blow your mind... NEITHER. Just say "Purchases" or "Bookmarks." Not yours, not mine, not his, not hers. Just "it." Now, get back to w

by thejerz 14y ago

Ready? This is going to blow your mind... NEITHER. Just say "Purchases" or "Bookmarks." Not yours, not mine, not his, not hers. Just "it." Now, get back to writing code!

majormajor 14y ago
Reminds me a bit of the good ol' pre-Vista days of "My Documents" et cetera in the Windows world. :) But hey, even MS took a decade between 95 and Vista to decide to drop the prefix!
- olliesaunders 14y ago
  But versions of Windows before 95 didn‘t have the prefix. In Windows 3.1 it was just Program Manager, Write, Paintbrush, File Manager etc. So they took a step backwards in 95. It took them a decade to get back to where they were in the 80s.
- jtheory 14y ago
  Their choice of "My" caused a humorous reaction on quite a few people who felt the computer was much more a separate entity than a mechanical extension of themselves (to use the terminology of the OP)... Remember the joke that Bill Gates reckons he has such complete control over every PC with Windows installed that he goes around naming each one "My Computer" so we won't forget it's his?
scottmagdalein 14y ago
Where this simplicity breaks down is when you have two kinds of a thing. For example, a user may have documents shared by a group and then documents that are yours/mine. Honestly, I still feel it's an overwrought discussion about something that ultimately doesn't effect the user enough to change their general perception of the product.
- thejerz 14y ago
  So, call the one Documents, and call the other Shared Documents. This ≠ rocket science.
  - schraeds 14y ago
    I'd love to see some software you've designed.
  - benihana 14y ago
    Why are you so dismissive of this in such a condescending manner? On hacker news of all places, a site where people go for discussion of articles?
  - kaybe 14y ago
    I'm pretty sure rocket science has a standard for stuff like this. There is a standard for everything. http://www.ecss.nl/ http://www.ecss.nl/
kyro 14y ago
This is a really dismissive comment that could be used to trivialize just about any article and debate here on HN. While it isn't a big issue, this topic is something designer's do think about and a discussion about its effects on user experience seems reasonable. Plus I doubt anyone's losing hours of productivity over this.
- jankins 14y ago
  I disagree, I think if the OP was attempting to make a fair analysis, he should have acknowledged the third option. My immediate thought was the same expressed in this comment, as My & Your add wordiness. I suppose it depends on the overall tone & genre of the software you're (I'm?) designing, but it's an obvious alternative.
  - nswanberg 14y ago
    Dustin's post was not simply about whether to prepend labels with "my" or "your". That choice was an example of a more fundamental concern: whether to imagine the user as seeing an app as an extension of themselves or as seeing the app as a separate entity, and the implications of that in the interface. It may have been helpful for the post to consider the effects of using no pronouns on a user's mental model, and a better response to the post would be to explore those effects, not to dismiss it outright as a false dilemma. A much better method of dismissing posts that have obvious answers is to not comment on them.
- Tichy 14y ago
  Calling comments dismissive is rather dismissive in itself. I don't see what is wrong with pointing out a better option (in the opinion of the commentator) in a succinct way.
- coldtea 14y ago
  >This is a really dismissive comment that could be used to trivialize just about any article and debate here on HN. Well, thinking in a false binary, when there are far more choices, as the article does, already trivialises the subject matter.
Kerrick 14y ago
That works fine for links and buttons, but what about microcopy?
- s_kilk 14y ago
  Microcopy generally takes the form of a speaking voice which addresses the User directly, so a phrase like "Are you sure you want to delete this Customer?" makes more sense than "Am I sure I want to delete this Customer?". And so forth.
reyan 14y ago
Sometimes you have to differentiate (e.g., between all the bookmarks and the user's bookmarks in a navbar).
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  Which Microsoft also fouled up. A user's desktop could contain elements which were present in the user's desktop folder, in a group folder, or in the global desktop folder for the system. From within the Explorer shell, it wasn't obviously clear where the element came from. Yet another reason I have a rabid dislike for GUI file manglers.
Silhouette 14y ago
That's the kind of dismissive attitude that kills web companies. If there's one thing we've learned from usability research, A/B testing and the like, it's that seemingly subtle changes in details can make a huge difference to overall effectiveness. And if there's a second thing we've learned, it's that what programmers or web developers assume is best is a lousy indicator of what is best when you actually measure results. Presenting material in a way that resonates with the target audience of each particular product or service is important, and a little time spent getting it right will almost certainly generate more benefit than writing code for the same amount of time.
- amirmc 14y ago
  Nothing in the OP refers to A/B testing, Usability testing or in fact any kind of testing. At all.
  - Silhouette 14y ago
    That's irrelevant. There are multiple reasonable possibilities here. Saying "Do X, now get on with coding" as if X is somehow obviously the right answer is a very dangerous attitude. The original article might not have mentioned those kinds of testing explicitly, but still, professionals decide among various choices being considered based on merit, not personal preference.
    - amirmc 14y ago
      I find your comment odd (in that I am confused by it). The top comment (which you seem to take issue with) isn't any more useful to anyone than the OP itself. I took it as a bit tounge-in-cheek. You state that professionals make decisions based on merit rather than personal preference and yet the OP did the exact opposite. So neither the OP nor top-commenter are taking the 'professional' approach here. FWIW I agree with pretty much everything you said in your previous comment (although perhaps not the first sentence). EDIT: Or perhaps his last sentence irritated you? If he'd omitted "Now, get back to writing code!" would you still feel the same?

by thejerz 14y ago

Ready? This is going to blow your mind... NEITHER. Just say "Purchases" or "Bookmarks." Not yours, not mine, not his, not hers. Just "it." Now, get back to writing code!

majormajor 14y ago

Reminds me a bit of the good ol' pre-Vista days of "My Documents" et cetera in the Windows world. :) But hey, even MS took a decade between 95 and Vista to decide to drop the prefix!

olliesaunders 14y ago
But versions of Windows before 95 didn‘t have the prefix. In Windows 3.1 it was just Program Manager, Write, Paintbrush, File Manager etc. So they took a step backwards in 95. It took them a decade to get back to where they were in the 80s.
jtheory 14y ago
Their choice of "My" caused a humorous reaction on quite a few people who felt the computer was much more a separate entity than a mechanical extension of themselves (to use the terminology of the OP)... Remember the joke that Bill Gates reckons he has such complete control over every PC with Windows installed that he goes around naming each one "My Computer" so we won't forget it's his?

scottmagdalein 14y ago

Where this simplicity breaks down is when you have two kinds of a thing. For example, a user may have documents shared by a group and then documents that are yours/mine. Honestly, I still feel it's an overwrought discussion about something that ultimately doesn't effect the user enough to change their general perception of the product.

thejerz 14y ago
So, call the one Documents, and call the other Shared Documents. This ≠ rocket science.
- schraeds 14y ago
  I'd love to see some software you've designed.
- benihana 14y ago
  Why are you so dismissive of this in such a condescending manner? On hacker news of all places, a site where people go for discussion of articles?
- kaybe 14y ago
  I'm pretty sure rocket science has a standard for stuff like this. There is a standard for everything. http://www.ecss.nl/ http://www.ecss.nl/

kyro 14y ago

This is a really dismissive comment that could be used to trivialize just about any article and debate here on HN. While it isn't a big issue, this topic is something designer's do think about and a discussion about its effects on user experience seems reasonable. Plus I doubt anyone's losing hours of productivity over this.

jankins 14y ago
I disagree, I think if the OP was attempting to make a fair analysis, he should have acknowledged the third option. My immediate thought was the same expressed in this comment, as My & Your add wordiness. I suppose it depends on the overall tone & genre of the software you're (I'm?) designing, but it's an obvious alternative.
- nswanberg 14y ago
  Dustin's post was not simply about whether to prepend labels with "my" or "your". That choice was an example of a more fundamental concern: whether to imagine the user as seeing an app as an extension of themselves or as seeing the app as a separate entity, and the implications of that in the interface. It may have been helpful for the post to consider the effects of using no pronouns on a user's mental model, and a better response to the post would be to explore those effects, not to dismiss it outright as a false dilemma. A much better method of dismissing posts that have obvious answers is to not comment on them.
Tichy 14y ago
Calling comments dismissive is rather dismissive in itself. I don't see what is wrong with pointing out a better option (in the opinion of the commentator) in a succinct way.
coldtea 14y ago
>This is a really dismissive comment that could be used to trivialize just about any article and debate here on HN. Well, thinking in a false binary, when there are far more choices, as the article does, already trivialises the subject matter.

Kerrick 14y ago

That works fine for links and buttons, but what about microcopy?

s_kilk 14y ago
Microcopy generally takes the form of a speaking voice which addresses the User directly, so a phrase like "Are you sure you want to delete this Customer?" makes more sense than "Am I sure I want to delete this Customer?". And so forth.

reyan 14y ago

Sometimes you have to differentiate (e.g., between all the bookmarks and the user's bookmarks in a navbar).

dredmorbius 14y ago
Which Microsoft also fouled up. A user's desktop could contain elements which were present in the user's desktop folder, in a group folder, or in the global desktop folder for the system. From within the Explorer shell, it wasn't obviously clear where the element came from. Yet another reason I have a rabid dislike for GUI file manglers.

Silhouette 14y ago

That's the kind of dismissive attitude that kills web companies. If there's one thing we've learned from usability research, A/B testing and the like, it's that seemingly subtle changes in details can make a huge difference to overall effectiveness. And if there's a second thing we've learned, it's that what programmers or web developers assume is best is a lousy indicator of what is best when you actually measure results. Presenting material in a way that resonates with the target audience of each particular product or service is important, and a little time spent getting it right will almost certainly generate more benefit than writing code for the same amount of time.

amirmc 14y ago
Nothing in the OP refers to A/B testing, Usability testing or in fact any kind of testing. At all.
- Silhouette 14y ago
  That's irrelevant. There are multiple reasonable possibilities here. Saying "Do X, now get on with coding" as if X is somehow obviously the right answer is a very dangerous attitude. The original article might not have mentioned those kinds of testing explicitly, but still, professionals decide among various choices being considered based on merit, not personal preference.
  - amirmc 14y ago
    I find your comment odd (in that I am confused by it). The top comment (which you seem to take issue with) isn't any more useful to anyone than the OP itself. I took it as a bit tounge-in-cheek. You state that professionals make decisions based on merit rather than personal preference and yet the OP did the exact opposite. So neither the OP nor top-commenter are taking the 'professional' approach here. FWIW I agree with pretty much everything you said in your previous comment (although perhaps not the first sentence). EDIT: Or perhaps his last sentence irritated you? If he'd omitted "Now, get back to writing code!" would you still feel the same?