7 ms·

NYC should decrease income taxes and increase property taxes. I don't mind out of towners buying expensive condo's, but they should help pay for the services t

NYC should decrease income taxes and increase property taxes. I don't mind out of towners buying expensive condo's, but they should help pay for the services that make New York great. Right now, because their income is all earned out of town and property taxes are very low, so they are not really supporting the city.

robotic 14y ago
But they aren't really using the city services either.
- runT1ME 14y ago
  If their vacant house catches on fire or someone ransacks it, will the police or firemen not intervene?
  - fleitz 14y ago
    Seriously? Buildings with modern working sprinkler systems are rarely an issue for firefighters. As for break-ins the concierge rarely let roving bands of hooligans in to trash places / squat. Empty luxury condos are not the fire / squat hazard that abandoned warehouses, etc are. Nice try. It's pretty likely that someone would notice a squat in a luxury condo. As for city services the NYPD could probably greatly improve their budget by not unconstitutionally stopping and frisking people.
    - afterburner 14y ago
      The city costs money to run regardless, and the people buying crashpads there still want it to be the NYC they bought into when they end up sleep there.
  - nitrogen 14y ago
    What is the probability that a condo in which no appliances are being used will catch fire?
Kadin 14y ago
Good luck selling that to the rest of the residents; property taxes are pretty unpopular even compared to income taxes. And really, the better way to look at it is that the property tax paid by some multi-billionaire who only drops into town for a few weekends a year is all profit for the city. They're not using services. They're not sending their kids to public school or generating garbage or calling the police ... whatever they pay to the city each year is just gravy. They're subsidizing people who actually do live there, and would otherwise have to pay more taxes (of one form or another) for the actual services that NYC provides.
- jcampbell1 14y ago
  > They're not using services. Government services are not something that are "used" in the normal sense of the word. Central Park needs to get mowed, street lights need to be lit, police and fire protection needs to be provided, etc. regardless of whether residents are there or not.
  - orourkek 14y ago
    Given that the people in question are there for just days/weeks per year, their "use" of the services seems in line with the taxes they pay. Without knowing specific numbers it's hard to get exact math, but if someone pays property tax on a multi-million dollar condo purchase and is only in the city for 3 weeks per year, surely they aren't overusing the services?
    - pyoung 14y ago
      If they can afford a crash pad in new york city, then a little extra in property taxes is probably not gonna break the bank. Another way to look at the issue, is to evaluate the 'tax collection opportunity costs' of the absentee owners. For every condo that gets bought by an absentee owner (as opposed to a local owner), NYC loses income tax, sales tax, and general economic activity (these are wealthy individuals, there spending is a boost to the local economy). By increasing the property taxes, NYC would shift the cost-benefit ratio towards those that are actually going to utilize the property (thus resulting in more income and sales taxes), while also bringing in more property taxes Finally, if these wealthy individuals were so concerned about only paying for what they "use", then it would make a lot more sense if they just got a nice hotel room for the days/weeks per year that they are in NYC, rather than buying a condo that sits empty most of the time.
bobcattr 14y ago
And what would happen to people like my grandmother who can barely afford their property taxes now. She has lived in the same house for 50 years
- bmm6o 14y ago
  Yeah, there's absolutely no solution to this, so the idea is a non-starter. (sarcasm)
- rdl 14y ago
  That is why we have prop 13 in California, but that ends up either stripping tax revenue, or heavily taxing new migrants to be state (tech entrepreneurs, international people, etc) -- or, in California, both.
- jellicle 14y ago
  If she is burdened by property taxes, it's because she's living in an extraordinarily valuable house. Since property taxes are in the neighborhood of 1% of value, and real estate prices in NYC go up by several percent per year, your sainted grandmother could borrow the money to pay the property taxes, against the property, and the increase in property value would more than pay the taxes. Rich grandmothers are not actually a problem we need to solve.
  - pc86 14y ago
    I'm sorry but this is just wrong on every level imaginable. > If she is burdened by property taxes, it's because she's living in an extraordinarily valuable house. Or because she's been on a fixed income for several years. Or because she has a lot of medical bills, as most older folks do. Or because any of a myriad of other reason that would cause someone with a piece of land to not be swimming in a pile of gold coins. > Since property taxes are in the neighborhood of 1% of value, and real estate prices in NYC go up by several percent per year, I can't speak to the real estate prices or property taxes so I'll take you at your word here. > your sainted grandmother I think we can all go without sarcastic ad hominems against our grandmothers. Jesus Christ. > could borrow the money to pay the property taxes, against the property, and the increase in property value would more than pay the taxes. For me, this is just the pièce de résistance of this entire convoluted argument. The idea that someone who is having trouble paying property taxes should get a loan and pay the property taxes plus interest is just laughable. > Rich grandmothers are not actually a problem we need to solve. You're assuming that because someone owns property in NYC that they're rich, which is clearly not the case, especially if they've been there for half a century.
prostoalex 14y ago
Hawaii has this system where property tax is reversely proportional to occupancy by owner, so full-time islanders end up paying very little, while people who buy high-end condos for crashpads or rentals.
Spooky23 14y ago
The rest of New York took that approach. It sucks. I live upstate, and pay about 2.5% of my home's value in taxes. Every time they give the cops another 5% raise, it has an immediate, measurable impact on my homes value. For older people, it makes it very difficult for them to live without assistance. Income tax is a far more just system. Poor and elderly people pay almost nothing, and everyone else contributes regardless of whether they own property.
- peter_l_downs 14y ago
  This is a great answer because it points out something that a lot of people either intentionally overlook or neglect to consider: taxes have different effects on different groups of people. Try sitting in on a highschool economics class some time -- full of statements like "Inflation can't be bad, can it? We consumers can pay our debt back in an amount that's worth less in buying power than the amount we borrowed!"
  - Spooky23 14y ago
    Another point that I forgot to mention is that states like New York are rapacious about the collection of income tax. Setting foot within the boundaries of New York State or New York City is a taxable event for the average absentee billionaires. Example: http://www.akerman.com/documents/res.asp?id=1089 http://www.akerman.com/documents/res.asp?id=1089
pc86 14y ago
Because somebody who owns a condo and is there for 3 weeks a year is sucking up city resources as fast as they can?

robotic 14y ago

But they aren't really using the city services either.

runT1ME 14y ago
If their vacant house catches on fire or someone ransacks it, will the police or firemen not intervene?
- fleitz 14y ago
  Seriously? Buildings with modern working sprinkler systems are rarely an issue for firefighters. As for break-ins the concierge rarely let roving bands of hooligans in to trash places / squat. Empty luxury condos are not the fire / squat hazard that abandoned warehouses, etc are. Nice try. It's pretty likely that someone would notice a squat in a luxury condo. As for city services the NYPD could probably greatly improve their budget by not unconstitutionally stopping and frisking people.
  - afterburner 14y ago
    The city costs money to run regardless, and the people buying crashpads there still want it to be the NYC they bought into when they end up sleep there.
- nitrogen 14y ago
  What is the probability that a condo in which no appliances are being used will catch fire?

Kadin 14y ago

Good luck selling that to the rest of the residents; property taxes are pretty unpopular even compared to income taxes. And really, the better way to look at it is that the property tax paid by some multi-billionaire who only drops into town for a few weekends a year is all profit for the city. They're not using services. They're not sending their kids to public school or generating garbage or calling the police ... whatever they pay to the city each year is just gravy. They're subsidizing people who actually do live there, and would otherwise have to pay more taxes (of one form or another) for the actual services that NYC provides.

jcampbell1 14y ago
> They're not using services. Government services are not something that are "used" in the normal sense of the word. Central Park needs to get mowed, street lights need to be lit, police and fire protection needs to be provided, etc. regardless of whether residents are there or not.
- orourkek 14y ago
  Given that the people in question are there for just days/weeks per year, their "use" of the services seems in line with the taxes they pay. Without knowing specific numbers it's hard to get exact math, but if someone pays property tax on a multi-million dollar condo purchase and is only in the city for 3 weeks per year, surely they aren't overusing the services?
  - pyoung 14y ago
    If they can afford a crash pad in new york city, then a little extra in property taxes is probably not gonna break the bank. Another way to look at the issue, is to evaluate the 'tax collection opportunity costs' of the absentee owners. For every condo that gets bought by an absentee owner (as opposed to a local owner), NYC loses income tax, sales tax, and general economic activity (these are wealthy individuals, there spending is a boost to the local economy). By increasing the property taxes, NYC would shift the cost-benefit ratio towards those that are actually going to utilize the property (thus resulting in more income and sales taxes), while also bringing in more property taxes Finally, if these wealthy individuals were so concerned about only paying for what they "use", then it would make a lot more sense if they just got a nice hotel room for the days/weeks per year that they are in NYC, rather than buying a condo that sits empty most of the time.

bobcattr 14y ago

And what would happen to people like my grandmother who can barely afford their property taxes now. She has lived in the same house for 50 years

bmm6o 14y ago
Yeah, there's absolutely no solution to this, so the idea is a non-starter. (sarcasm)
rdl 14y ago
That is why we have prop 13 in California, but that ends up either stripping tax revenue, or heavily taxing new migrants to be state (tech entrepreneurs, international people, etc) -- or, in California, both.
jellicle 14y ago
If she is burdened by property taxes, it's because she's living in an extraordinarily valuable house. Since property taxes are in the neighborhood of 1% of value, and real estate prices in NYC go up by several percent per year, your sainted grandmother could borrow the money to pay the property taxes, against the property, and the increase in property value would more than pay the taxes. Rich grandmothers are not actually a problem we need to solve.
- pc86 14y ago
  I'm sorry but this is just wrong on every level imaginable. > If she is burdened by property taxes, it's because she's living in an extraordinarily valuable house. Or because she's been on a fixed income for several years. Or because she has a lot of medical bills, as most older folks do. Or because any of a myriad of other reason that would cause someone with a piece of land to not be swimming in a pile of gold coins. > Since property taxes are in the neighborhood of 1% of value, and real estate prices in NYC go up by several percent per year, I can't speak to the real estate prices or property taxes so I'll take you at your word here. > your sainted grandmother I think we can all go without sarcastic ad hominems against our grandmothers. Jesus Christ. > could borrow the money to pay the property taxes, against the property, and the increase in property value would more than pay the taxes. For me, this is just the pièce de résistance of this entire convoluted argument. The idea that someone who is having trouble paying property taxes should get a loan and pay the property taxes plus interest is just laughable. > Rich grandmothers are not actually a problem we need to solve. You're assuming that because someone owns property in NYC that they're rich, which is clearly not the case, especially if they've been there for half a century.

prostoalex 14y ago

Hawaii has this system where property tax is reversely proportional to occupancy by owner, so full-time islanders end up paying very little, while people who buy high-end condos for crashpads or rentals.

Spooky23 14y ago

The rest of New York took that approach. It sucks. I live upstate, and pay about 2.5% of my home's value in taxes. Every time they give the cops another 5% raise, it has an immediate, measurable impact on my homes value. For older people, it makes it very difficult for them to live without assistance. Income tax is a far more just system. Poor and elderly people pay almost nothing, and everyone else contributes regardless of whether they own property.

peter_l_downs 14y ago
This is a great answer because it points out something that a lot of people either intentionally overlook or neglect to consider: taxes have different effects on different groups of people. Try sitting in on a highschool economics class some time -- full of statements like "Inflation can't be bad, can it? We consumers can pay our debt back in an amount that's worth less in buying power than the amount we borrowed!"
- Spooky23 14y ago
  Another point that I forgot to mention is that states like New York are rapacious about the collection of income tax. Setting foot within the boundaries of New York State or New York City is a taxable event for the average absentee billionaires. Example: http://www.akerman.com/documents/res.asp?id=1089 http://www.akerman.com/documents/res.asp?id=1089

pc86 14y ago

Because somebody who owns a condo and is there for 3 weeks a year is sucking up city resources as fast as they can?