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Age discrimination is a major issue in the valley but no one wants to admit to it since everyone is violating it. For example, why does YC application asks for

Age discrimination is a major issue in the valley but no one wants to admit to it since everyone is violating it. For example, why does YC application asks for Age?

waterlesscloud 14y ago
PG himself admits to a slight age bias. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5191894 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5191894 "There's an age bias in that our standards get higher as the founders get older. You can't reasonably expect a 19 year old to have achieved as much as a 35 year old. But there's no sudden cutoff." Even though I'm older, I have to admit it makes sense.
loumf 14y ago
It could be for demographic/statistical purposes. They are trying hard to learn about who to invest in -- data is key. Also, do age discrimination laws apply to VC's? Not that it would be right to do it -- but is it illegal?
- salimmadjd 14y ago
  No it's not. However, I am pointing out the underlying hypocrisy. In the valley we are for equal right, gay rights, which I fully support. But it seems like when it comes to age we all look the other way. That's all I'm pointing out.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    I think it just comes down to business. If you are a tech company saying "we are happy to employ gay people" makes you sound all progressive and fair. However there is no business risk that you are taking on here because nobody is saying that gay programmers write worse code or anything like that. Now contrast that with the US military and the shitstorm around allowing openly gay people to serve. Since there are many conservative types in the military who threatened to resign if openly gay people were allowed to serve you have the argument "allowing gays to openly serve will hurt our national security". Now even the most liberal gay friendly person might see that as a valid argument.
- over40guy4 14y ago
  Then why not ask for gender while we are at it. And race as well. Collecting data selectively is how discrimination starts. But you are probably right, it's not illegal.
jiggy2011 14y ago
Perhaps being younger is an advantage in the sort of "go big or go home" swing for the fences entrepreneurship? Lack of experience is probably helpful if you are doing something which is basically a bad idea but because of a bunch of factors clicking into place ends up being an awesome idea. When you are older you are probably not in such a position to just run with some crazy idea.
- salimmadjd 14y ago
  You mean like Elon Musk that bet everything on Tesla? See the problem is, there is no real data there and these guys are betting on anecdotal evidence. Generalization is the root of all discriminations.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    There will always be counterexamples to generalisations like this. Also if you are an older person with an existing track record in starting successful and ambitious businesses and significant capital & connections then the picture is going to be somewhat different. People like Elon Musk are also unlikely to be applying somewhere like YC. What I'm talking about is the first time entrepreneur who maybe has had a steady job for the last 10+ years and maybe kids/mortgage and all the rest of that. These people are probably less likely to be interested in trying to be the next facebook and more interested in a profitable but humble B2B business or something such as that.
    - mindcrime 14y ago
      These people are probably less likely to be interested in trying to be the next facebook and more interested in a profitable but humble B2B business or something such as that. Why would you think a B2B business has to be "humble"? Do you realize how much money is at stake in the B2B world? Have you looked at the financials for Oracle or IBM lately? How about forget being "the next Facebook" and trying to be "the next Oracle" or "the next Red Hat"?
      - 14y ago
radley 14y ago
I was one of the oldest applicants and it never came up as an issue. Another in my batch was older than me by a year.
- salimmadjd 14y ago
  May I ask your age? If that wasn't an issue then why even ask it on the application.
  - radley 14y ago
    I'm now 44, was 39. To see if the myths held up. Age was talked about a little at dinners, but the consensus was that it didn't matter. UPDATE: to be clear, it was agreed that being older had some advantages like experience & maturity. Being older wasn't automatically considered "bad" as the myth usually goes.
    - salimmadjd 14y ago
      That's great. I can tell you my personal reaction and another co-founder when we saw the age question in YC application. We didn't like seeing it there.
      - jfoster 14y ago
        Is that because you don't believe that age could possibly be a factor in likelihood of success for a startup, or because you believe that even if it can be a good signal that investors should ignore it on principle? I think if you look at this from an investor's point of view, it makes complete sense. It's definitely not fair, but in a way that's part and parcel of starting a venture.
        stcredzero 14y ago
        > It's definitely not fair, but in a way that's part and parcel of starting a venture. In which sense do you find it, "unfair, but part and parcel?" Is it not fair in the sense that physical attractiveness and gender is an "unfair" factor when hiring Hooter's wait staff? Or rather, is it "unfair" in the sense of hiring a receptionist or a graphic designer? (Where looks aren't explicitly in the job description, but where exceptional attractiveness could be a potent and favorable signal for the company.) Or is it "unfair" in the sense of it being a factor in hiring a machinist? Can you explain the "part and parcel" part?

Age discrimination is a major issue in the valley but no one wants to admit to it since everyone is violating it. For example, why does YC application asks for Age?

waterlesscloud 14y ago

PG himself admits to a slight age bias. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5191894 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5191894 "There's an age bias in that our standards get higher as the founders get older. You can't reasonably expect a 19 year old to have achieved as much as a 35 year old. But there's no sudden cutoff." Even though I'm older, I have to admit it makes sense.

loumf 14y ago

It could be for demographic/statistical purposes. They are trying hard to learn about who to invest in -- data is key. Also, do age discrimination laws apply to VC's? Not that it would be right to do it -- but is it illegal?

salimmadjd 14y ago
No it's not. However, I am pointing out the underlying hypocrisy. In the valley we are for equal right, gay rights, which I fully support. But it seems like when it comes to age we all look the other way. That's all I'm pointing out.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  I think it just comes down to business. If you are a tech company saying "we are happy to employ gay people" makes you sound all progressive and fair. However there is no business risk that you are taking on here because nobody is saying that gay programmers write worse code or anything like that. Now contrast that with the US military and the shitstorm around allowing openly gay people to serve. Since there are many conservative types in the military who threatened to resign if openly gay people were allowed to serve you have the argument "allowing gays to openly serve will hurt our national security". Now even the most liberal gay friendly person might see that as a valid argument.
over40guy4 14y ago
Then why not ask for gender while we are at it. And race as well. Collecting data selectively is how discrimination starts. But you are probably right, it's not illegal.

jiggy2011 14y ago

Perhaps being younger is an advantage in the sort of "go big or go home" swing for the fences entrepreneurship? Lack of experience is probably helpful if you are doing something which is basically a bad idea but because of a bunch of factors clicking into place ends up being an awesome idea. When you are older you are probably not in such a position to just run with some crazy idea.

salimmadjd 14y ago
You mean like Elon Musk that bet everything on Tesla? See the problem is, there is no real data there and these guys are betting on anecdotal evidence. Generalization is the root of all discriminations.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  There will always be counterexamples to generalisations like this. Also if you are an older person with an existing track record in starting successful and ambitious businesses and significant capital & connections then the picture is going to be somewhat different. People like Elon Musk are also unlikely to be applying somewhere like YC. What I'm talking about is the first time entrepreneur who maybe has had a steady job for the last 10+ years and maybe kids/mortgage and all the rest of that. These people are probably less likely to be interested in trying to be the next facebook and more interested in a profitable but humble B2B business or something such as that.
  - mindcrime 14y ago
    These people are probably less likely to be interested in trying to be the next facebook and more interested in a profitable but humble B2B business or something such as that. Why would you think a B2B business has to be "humble"? Do you realize how much money is at stake in the B2B world? Have you looked at the financials for Oracle or IBM lately? How about forget being "the next Facebook" and trying to be "the next Oracle" or "the next Red Hat"?
    - 14y ago

radley 14y ago

I was one of the oldest applicants and it never came up as an issue. Another in my batch was older than me by a year.

salimmadjd 14y ago
May I ask your age? If that wasn't an issue then why even ask it on the application.
- radley 14y ago
  I'm now 44, was 39. To see if the myths held up. Age was talked about a little at dinners, but the consensus was that it didn't matter. UPDATE: to be clear, it was agreed that being older had some advantages like experience & maturity. Being older wasn't automatically considered "bad" as the myth usually goes.
  - salimmadjd 14y ago
    That's great. I can tell you my personal reaction and another co-founder when we saw the age question in YC application. We didn't like seeing it there.
    - jfoster 14y ago
      Is that because you don't believe that age could possibly be a factor in likelihood of success for a startup, or because you believe that even if it can be a good signal that investors should ignore it on principle? I think if you look at this from an investor's point of view, it makes complete sense. It's definitely not fair, but in a way that's part and parcel of starting a venture.
      - stcredzero 14y ago
        > It's definitely not fair, but in a way that's part and parcel of starting a venture. In which sense do you find it, "unfair, but part and parcel?" Is it not fair in the sense that physical attractiveness and gender is an "unfair" factor when hiring Hooter's wait staff? Or rather, is it "unfair" in the sense of hiring a receptionist or a graphic designer? (Where looks aren't explicitly in the job description, but where exceptional attractiveness could be a potent and favorable signal for the company.) Or is it "unfair" in the sense of it being a factor in hiring a machinist? Can you explain the "part and parcel" part?