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This is a different argument than 'he doesn't need the favor' and as Patrick said about that one this is also a disempowering view. If you're going to look at t

by po 14y ago

This is a different argument than 'he doesn't need the favor' and as Patrick said about that one this is also a disempowering view. If you're going to look at the world through the lens of power, control and socioeconomic status then you're surely going to find it wherever you look but sure, let's tackle this one too. Let's define 'kissing ass' as doing someone with the power to help you a favor you wouldn't otherwise do (hence the ass kiss), to get favorable treatment. This would fall under that definition, but then so would all kinds of things like tipping a waiter or buying your date a rose. So, what can we add to the definition to make it work? The only thing I can think of is that we don't like the idea that the favor is to someone who isn't a peer - someone above you. But Sivers' point is that you are peers in all the ways that matter. To have opportunities open up to you, you just need two things: 1.) be provably somewhat above average at something (even if that thing is just showing initiative) and 2.) get yourself on other people's radar. You can do the first with a website and the second with an email. Back when he started out, he didn't have websites and email so he used 'showing problem-solving initiative' and a handshake. Sivers didn't just laugh at a joke or pay empty compliments, he took a risk, took initiative, and signaled that he was a person worth knowing. Later when he got a job offer he was not just collecting on a favor, he was also providing value: he worked his ass off for them. Calling people who show initiative and motivation to open up their options 'ass kissers' is crab mentality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

codeonfire 14y ago
The reason this sort of thing does not sit well with some people is that this does not work from an ethical standpoint in many fields. What if doctors, lawyers, or engineers all got to skip school because they bought the right person some lunch? Obviously things got so bad in the past that those fields are now heavily regulated. It's not a matter of just being a hard worker. If someone works relationships to get a job and then an airplane crashes it is bad news for everyone. Clearly, when flying at 35,000 feet you want the most skilled person to have designed your plane, not the guy who bought lunch for the right person. People in the 'serious' professions already have to put up with dishonesty, battle daily with unethical coworkers and organizations, and have to work with someone's crappy family member hire. So to applaud ass kissers who get a job based on connections is very bad for society. If it's just about music or acting or some non-serious field, the no one cares and no one does care.
- mirkules 14y ago
  Even in "serious" professions, it still matters who you know. Here's an anecdote: a good friend of mine studied and finished medicine in a foreign country (in English). He passed all the American exams, yet no school would take him. The path to becoming an American doctor is quite different and more difficult than if you were to study domestically. However, he met a doctor from the same country who practices medicine in America. The doctor was able to secure a volunteering position for my friend, and because of that volunteering experience, he is now finishing his residency program in the top 90% of his class. Long story short: having connections is not about creating shortcuts; it's about creating opportunities that would otherwise be impossible to obtain.
coldtea 14y ago
>Let's define 'kissing ass' as doing someone with the power to help you a favor you wouldn't otherwise do (hence the ass kiss), to get favorable treatment. This would fall under that definition, but then so would all kinds of things like tipping a waiter or buying your date a rose. What? People don't tip the waiter as "kissing ass". The waiter is not in power, and at the time of the tip he has served your meal already. If anything, they do it as charity. And people certainly don't buy roses to their girlfriend as "kissing ass", they do it because they want to. Except if you have this notion that males don't like romantic gestures. >Calling people who show initiative and motivation to open up their options 'ass kissers' is crab mentality. No, it's not. The article on Wikipedia describes the meaning of the phrase well, and this is not it. You can "show initiative and motivation" without buying anyone in power a pizza. Millions of people have done it.

by po 14y ago

codeonfire 14y ago

The reason this sort of thing does not sit well with some people is that this does not work from an ethical standpoint in many fields. What if doctors, lawyers, or engineers all got to skip school because they bought the right person some lunch? Obviously things got so bad in the past that those fields are now heavily regulated. It's not a matter of just being a hard worker. If someone works relationships to get a job and then an airplane crashes it is bad news for everyone. Clearly, when flying at 35,000 feet you want the most skilled person to have designed your plane, not the guy who bought lunch for the right person. People in the 'serious' professions already have to put up with dishonesty, battle daily with unethical coworkers and organizations, and have to work with someone's crappy family member hire. So to applaud ass kissers who get a job based on connections is very bad for society. If it's just about music or acting or some non-serious field, the no one cares and no one does care.

mirkules 14y ago
Even in "serious" professions, it still matters who you know. Here's an anecdote: a good friend of mine studied and finished medicine in a foreign country (in English). He passed all the American exams, yet no school would take him. The path to becoming an American doctor is quite different and more difficult than if you were to study domestically. However, he met a doctor from the same country who practices medicine in America. The doctor was able to secure a volunteering position for my friend, and because of that volunteering experience, he is now finishing his residency program in the top 90% of his class. Long story short: having connections is not about creating shortcuts; it's about creating opportunities that would otherwise be impossible to obtain.

coldtea 14y ago

>Let's define 'kissing ass' as doing someone with the power to help you a favor you wouldn't otherwise do (hence the ass kiss), to get favorable treatment. This would fall under that definition, but then so would all kinds of things like tipping a waiter or buying your date a rose. What? People don't tip the waiter as "kissing ass". The waiter is not in power, and at the time of the tip he has served your meal already. If anything, they do it as charity. And people certainly don't buy roses to their girlfriend as "kissing ass", they do it because they want to. Except if you have this notion that males don't like romantic gestures. >Calling people who show initiative and motivation to open up their options 'ass kissers' is crab mentality. No, it's not. The article on Wikipedia describes the meaning of the phrase well, and this is not it. You can "show initiative and motivation" without buying anyone in power a pizza. Millions of people have done it.