4 ms·

Am I the only one that is dissatisfied with all of the Lena references in the computer vision community? For a few years I was righteously indignant about the g

by thwest 14y ago

Am I the only one that is dissatisfied with all of the Lena references in the computer vision community? For a few years I was righteously indignant about the gender issues involved but now it's just trite. Makes us seem like adolescents that we find it so important to reference a Playboy photograph.

confluence 14y ago
rolls eyes It's just a standard image of a woman wearing a hat that has a lot of dynamic colors and allows people to check and compare graphic transforms easily - there is nothing offensive about it. Unless, of course, you find colorful pictures of women wearing hats offensive.
- StavrosK 14y ago
  Erm, you might want to take a look at this (NSFW): http://www.lenna.org/full/len_full.html http://www.lenna.org/full/len_full.html
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    Except that's not the complete story, is it? The complete story is that Lenna is from a culture where nobody makes that big a deal out of human sexuality, and that she was surprised and "pleasantly amused" when she learned of her indirect contribution to image processing technology.
    - StavrosK 14y ago
      I'm just pointing out that the photo is more than the headshot. My culture doesn't make a big deal out of human sexuality either, and, as for the sexism issue, I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole on HN, because any opinion with the word "woman" in it somehow turns out to be sexist (probably including this one).
      - derleth 14y ago
        > I'm just pointing out that the photo is more than the headshot. Not the photo that's actually used. Every photo is cropped, and a lot of great photos were cropped after they were taken. So it is with the photo of her used in the computer graphics world. Just to make it clearer: There's a valid reason a photo of a human being showing some skin is used. Humans know, at a very deep level, what skin is supposed to look like. If the colors of skin are somewhat wrong, we'll know. We'll also know if the shape of the face is somewhat wrong, for example, which makes it easier to see other kinds of errors or infelicitous compression artifacts. All of this is further helped by using the same image in a wide variety of contexts over a long period of time.
        StavrosK 14y ago
        > Not the photo that's actually used. I've seen the full photo used, but that's probably because we don't really have a problem with nudes, and it's an iconic image.
    - thwest 14y ago
      I want computer vision's culture to not be a subset of cultures that are sexually open. I'm not personally offended, but I don't think we should risk turning away the contributions to computer vision from people who are slighted by the use of pornography in a scientific context.
  - jrogers65 14y ago
    She's beautiful. What's so wrong about appreciating someone's body? You don't see this kind of reaction to nude male models - that is where the real sexism is, IMO.
    - quasque 14y ago
      Imagery of nude male models (or sexualized masculinity in general) rarely features in material related to computer science or software development, so a lack of reaction in this context is to be expected.
      - CamperBob2 14y ago
        Just as a sanity check: you are aware that graphics texts and papers don't use the entire Playboy photo, correct? I wonder if we're arguing about the same thing.
      - jrogers65 14y ago
        Point still stands that the material used in the software development field has no nudity in it what-so-ever. So it's a crop from a nude, big deal. Is it also wrong if a non-nude image of a porn actress is used? What about a non-nude of a regular woman? She's been naked at some point, after all. Why is the fact that it's from a nude shot considered demeaning? Because it's from a porno magazine? So what? I could kind of understand if it was a segment of an image from a hardcore scene but the full photo is actually quite tasteful. If I ever get the opportunity, I'll use a crop from a nude male photo to prove my point. I would bet a year's salary that there would be no backlash. There are far bigger issues in the world to be indignant about than this. We have people dying of thirst and hunger when we technically have enough resources to feed every person on the planet yet there are individuals full of anger regarding trivialities like this where everything is consensual, nobody was hurt and nothing bad happened. I believe that the correct term for this is "theatre of the absurd".
        quasque 14y ago
        "There are far bigger issues in the world to be indignant about than this. We have people dying of thirst and hunger when we technically have enough resources to feed every person on the planet yet there are individuals full of anger regarding trivialities like this where everything is consensual, nobody was hurt and nothing bad happened." By this logic, one could never discuss anything other than poverty, famine, and other terrible plights upon humanity. Yet here we are, talking about such a variety of different topics.
quasque 14y ago
I'm inclined to agree with you here. Unlike, for example, the timeless beauty of the Utah teapot, continuing to shoehorn Lena into digital image processing teaching and research does seem rather inappropriate in this day and age.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  If you are willing to go a mile out of your way to look for things to be offended by, then, perhaps.
  - quasque 14y ago
    Not really, the issue is more about making computer science and related fields equally accessible and comfortable to all genders. One way to do this is to avoid unnecessarily biasing topics towards the sexual interests of heterosexual males, e.g. using such pornography in image processing materials. I'm not personally offended by the image, but I don't think it's useful in the context just described.
    - CamperBob2 14y ago
      First of all, most people in the field were unaware that the classical "Lenna" headshot came from Playboy, or from "pornography" in general. You may be overlooking the fact that some cultures don't consider her fully-nude photograph pornographic at all, while other cultures consider even the headshot pornographic. "Pornography" is not a very useful term of art... any art. Second, women researchers are more than welcome to choose their own reference images. Third, you aren't just condemning computer graphics researchers, but practitioners in fields from advertising to art to athletics to zymurgy. The female face (and form) has been celebrated for aesthetic and artistic purposes in every civilization this side of Afghanistan. In short, I don't think I want to live in your world. I hope I continue to have a choice.
      - quasque 14y ago
        A world where female computer scientists and software developers feel as welcome as males sounds a lot better than the actual one plagued by rampant sexism and its corresponding denial.
CamperBob2 14y ago
For a few years I was righteously indignant about the gender issues involved but now it's just trite Why should anyone's opinion matter except for Lenna's own? You are complaining about an uncoerced act. For reference: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~chuck/lennapg/lenna.shtml http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~chuck/lennapg/lenna.shtml
- quasque 14y ago
  Lena's opinion on the matter is not really the point - the criticism is along the same principle as exemplified here: http://martinfowler.com/bliki/SmutOnRails.html http://martinfowler.com/bliki/SmutOnRails.html
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    It's at least as important as anyone else's.
- thwest 14y ago
  I am pleased to hear that Lenna is personally OK with the situation, however I am more concerned with the thousands of young women attempting to enter the boys club of computer science. These women are being coerced to deal with pornography as a theme or abandon computer vision.

by thwest 14y ago

confluence 14y ago

rolls eyes It's just a standard image of a woman wearing a hat that has a lot of dynamic colors and allows people to check and compare graphic transforms easily - there is nothing offensive about it. Unless, of course, you find colorful pictures of women wearing hats offensive.

StavrosK 14y ago
Erm, you might want to take a look at this (NSFW): http://www.lenna.org/full/len_full.html http://www.lenna.org/full/len_full.html
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  Except that's not the complete story, is it? The complete story is that Lenna is from a culture where nobody makes that big a deal out of human sexuality, and that she was surprised and "pleasantly amused" when she learned of her indirect contribution to image processing technology.
  - StavrosK 14y ago
    I'm just pointing out that the photo is more than the headshot. My culture doesn't make a big deal out of human sexuality either, and, as for the sexism issue, I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole on HN, because any opinion with the word "woman" in it somehow turns out to be sexist (probably including this one).
    - derleth 14y ago
      > I'm just pointing out that the photo is more than the headshot. Not the photo that's actually used. Every photo is cropped, and a lot of great photos were cropped after they were taken. So it is with the photo of her used in the computer graphics world. Just to make it clearer: There's a valid reason a photo of a human being showing some skin is used. Humans know, at a very deep level, what skin is supposed to look like. If the colors of skin are somewhat wrong, we'll know. We'll also know if the shape of the face is somewhat wrong, for example, which makes it easier to see other kinds of errors or infelicitous compression artifacts. All of this is further helped by using the same image in a wide variety of contexts over a long period of time.
      - StavrosK 14y ago
        > Not the photo that's actually used. I've seen the full photo used, but that's probably because we don't really have a problem with nudes, and it's an iconic image.
  - thwest 14y ago
    I want computer vision's culture to not be a subset of cultures that are sexually open. I'm not personally offended, but I don't think we should risk turning away the contributions to computer vision from people who are slighted by the use of pornography in a scientific context.
- jrogers65 14y ago
  She's beautiful. What's so wrong about appreciating someone's body? You don't see this kind of reaction to nude male models - that is where the real sexism is, IMO.
  - quasque 14y ago
    Imagery of nude male models (or sexualized masculinity in general) rarely features in material related to computer science or software development, so a lack of reaction in this context is to be expected.
    - CamperBob2 14y ago
      Just as a sanity check: you are aware that graphics texts and papers don't use the entire Playboy photo, correct? I wonder if we're arguing about the same thing.
    - jrogers65 14y ago
      Point still stands that the material used in the software development field has no nudity in it what-so-ever. So it's a crop from a nude, big deal. Is it also wrong if a non-nude image of a porn actress is used? What about a non-nude of a regular woman? She's been naked at some point, after all. Why is the fact that it's from a nude shot considered demeaning? Because it's from a porno magazine? So what? I could kind of understand if it was a segment of an image from a hardcore scene but the full photo is actually quite tasteful. If I ever get the opportunity, I'll use a crop from a nude male photo to prove my point. I would bet a year's salary that there would be no backlash. There are far bigger issues in the world to be indignant about than this. We have people dying of thirst and hunger when we technically have enough resources to feed every person on the planet yet there are individuals full of anger regarding trivialities like this where everything is consensual, nobody was hurt and nothing bad happened. I believe that the correct term for this is "theatre of the absurd".
      - quasque 14y ago
        "There are far bigger issues in the world to be indignant about than this. We have people dying of thirst and hunger when we technically have enough resources to feed every person on the planet yet there are individuals full of anger regarding trivialities like this where everything is consensual, nobody was hurt and nothing bad happened." By this logic, one could never discuss anything other than poverty, famine, and other terrible plights upon humanity. Yet here we are, talking about such a variety of different topics.

quasque 14y ago

I'm inclined to agree with you here. Unlike, for example, the timeless beauty of the Utah teapot, continuing to shoehorn Lena into digital image processing teaching and research does seem rather inappropriate in this day and age.

CamperBob2 14y ago
If you are willing to go a mile out of your way to look for things to be offended by, then, perhaps.
- quasque 14y ago
  Not really, the issue is more about making computer science and related fields equally accessible and comfortable to all genders. One way to do this is to avoid unnecessarily biasing topics towards the sexual interests of heterosexual males, e.g. using such pornography in image processing materials. I'm not personally offended by the image, but I don't think it's useful in the context just described.
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    First of all, most people in the field were unaware that the classical "Lenna" headshot came from Playboy, or from "pornography" in general. You may be overlooking the fact that some cultures don't consider her fully-nude photograph pornographic at all, while other cultures consider even the headshot pornographic. "Pornography" is not a very useful term of art... any art. Second, women researchers are more than welcome to choose their own reference images. Third, you aren't just condemning computer graphics researchers, but practitioners in fields from advertising to art to athletics to zymurgy. The female face (and form) has been celebrated for aesthetic and artistic purposes in every civilization this side of Afghanistan. In short, I don't think I want to live in your world. I hope I continue to have a choice.
    - quasque 14y ago
      A world where female computer scientists and software developers feel as welcome as males sounds a lot better than the actual one plagued by rampant sexism and its corresponding denial.

CamperBob2 14y ago

For a few years I was righteously indignant about the gender issues involved but now it's just trite Why should anyone's opinion matter except for Lenna's own? You are complaining about an uncoerced act. For reference: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~chuck/lennapg/lenna.shtml http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~chuck/lennapg/lenna.shtml

quasque 14y ago
Lena's opinion on the matter is not really the point - the criticism is along the same principle as exemplified here: http://martinfowler.com/bliki/SmutOnRails.html http://martinfowler.com/bliki/SmutOnRails.html
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  It's at least as important as anyone else's.
thwest 14y ago
I am pleased to hear that Lenna is personally OK with the situation, however I am more concerned with the thousands of young women attempting to enter the boys club of computer science. These women are being coerced to deal with pornography as a theme or abandon computer vision.