4 ms·

> Lots of people aren't curious Lots of adults aren't curious, but it seems like most small children are. What's going on there?

by Cushman 14y ago

fatbird 14y ago
The curiosity we see in children at play rarely translates to the kind of self-directed learning that Nabeel holds up as an ideal. This is not the education system's fault--ask any teacher and they'll tell you that they'd love for children to be engaged and curious, and they're frustrated that it frequently feels like leading them by the nose and making them drink. But there's another side as well: Watch children at play, and you'll see that children frequently sort themselves into leaders and followers. Children are often curious, but very often they're also looking for someone to give them cues and direction and structure. Children are complex; people are complex.
- Cushman 14y ago
  > they're frustrated that it frequently feels like leading them by the nose and making them drink. And aren't they? I mean, isn't that exactly what we are talking about? > Watch children at play This also cuts to the core of the issue. It seems to me like children are curious all the time, and they don't seem to occupy states like "playing" and "working". That's basically what our industrial-age public school system is supposed to teach, right? Number one lesson, sit down and be quiet-- you're not playing, you're learning, and it's serious.
  - fatbird 14y ago
    Number one lesson, sit down and be quiet-- you're not playing, you're learning, and it's serious. This is nonsense. Teachers talk endlessly about methods of engaging children and teenagers that are the exact opposite of that, and they're constantly trying things. This sort of Prussian, militarized school setting is a dystopian fantasy. It seems to me like children are curious all the time They're not. Some are, some aren't. Some are curious in ways that are useless for education. And I haven't even started discussing some of the practical issues that affect pedagogy, like poverty and bullying, that mitigate against creative, free-form "unschooling". You're treating children like noble savages, with all the fallacious reasoning that entails.
    - Cushman 14y ago
      > Teachers talk endlessly about methods of engaging children and teenagers Step 1: Force all children to go to a big building eight hours a day for twelve years "to learn". Step 2: They aren't learning. Figure out a way to make the average child interested and engaged by this circumstance. Step 3: Who knows? I'm sure teachers are, by and large, intelligent, caring people who really want to help pupils to fulfil themselves. But that doesn't help much if (as is being proposed) the education system itself is founded on flawed principles. > Some are curious in ways that are useless for education. Can you give me an example of such a form of curiosity? As I define it curiosity means wanting to know more; I can't make that be not useful for education in my head.
      - DanBC 14y ago
        > Can you give me an example of such a form of curiosity? Boys like learning lists of names and stats. You'll have met boys who can give you a very long list of dinosaur names or pokemon or supercars. But that's just rote recitation of facts; there's nothing in there about why things are how they are. Feynmann gives an interesting anecdote about his father talking about birds and trees. He'd rarely give just the name, but he would talk about why the tree had broad leaves or such.
        Cushman 14y ago
        Sorry, are you implying that there are kids out there who are drilling a list of dinosaur names every night without any interest in what those dinosaurs looked like, or sounded like, or ate? Every kid who's ever wanted to tell me about all the X she knows hasn't been able to wait to tell me all kinds of facts and details about each X, and was eager to hear if I knew something interesting about X. That's not rote recitation; that's knowledge.
      - fatbird 14y ago
        The problem with Step 1 is "all". The whole point of my initial post is that children vary, and the methods by which they're educated need to vary as well. "All children will be lead into the forest by an experienced guide who will let their curiosity guide them in a journey of self-exploration" is just as wrong. Can you give me an example of such a form of curiosity? My friend's son is endlessly curious about dinosaurs, so much so that he refuses to invest any time in math homework. In general, curiosity leads to specialization, which is great only to the extent that it doesn't preclude some time being exposed to other subjects. Curiosity is like having a favourite food: Children need to learn a balanced diet, lest they die of malnutrition for eating nothing but candy.

> Lots of people aren't curious Lots of adults aren't curious, but it seems like most small children are. What's going on there?

by Cushman 14y ago

> Lots of people aren't curious Lots of adults aren't curious, but it seems like most small children are. What's going on there?

fatbird 14y ago

The curiosity we see in children at play rarely translates to the kind of self-directed learning that Nabeel holds up as an ideal. This is not the education system's fault--ask any teacher and they'll tell you that they'd love for children to be engaged and curious, and they're frustrated that it frequently feels like leading them by the nose and making them drink. But there's another side as well: Watch children at play, and you'll see that children frequently sort themselves into leaders and followers. Children are often curious, but very often they're also looking for someone to give them cues and direction and structure. Children are complex; people are complex.

Cushman 14y ago
> they're frustrated that it frequently feels like leading them by the nose and making them drink. And aren't they? I mean, isn't that exactly what we are talking about? > Watch children at play This also cuts to the core of the issue. It seems to me like children are curious all the time, and they don't seem to occupy states like "playing" and "working". That's basically what our industrial-age public school system is supposed to teach, right? Number one lesson, sit down and be quiet-- you're not playing, you're learning, and it's serious.
- fatbird 14y ago
  Number one lesson, sit down and be quiet-- you're not playing, you're learning, and it's serious. This is nonsense. Teachers talk endlessly about methods of engaging children and teenagers that are the exact opposite of that, and they're constantly trying things. This sort of Prussian, militarized school setting is a dystopian fantasy. It seems to me like children are curious all the time They're not. Some are, some aren't. Some are curious in ways that are useless for education. And I haven't even started discussing some of the practical issues that affect pedagogy, like poverty and bullying, that mitigate against creative, free-form "unschooling". You're treating children like noble savages, with all the fallacious reasoning that entails.
  - Cushman 14y ago
    > Teachers talk endlessly about methods of engaging children and teenagers Step 1: Force all children to go to a big building eight hours a day for twelve years "to learn". Step 2: They aren't learning. Figure out a way to make the average child interested and engaged by this circumstance. Step 3: Who knows? I'm sure teachers are, by and large, intelligent, caring people who really want to help pupils to fulfil themselves. But that doesn't help much if (as is being proposed) the education system itself is founded on flawed principles. > Some are curious in ways that are useless for education. Can you give me an example of such a form of curiosity? As I define it curiosity means wanting to know more; I can't make that be not useful for education in my head.
    - DanBC 14y ago
      > Can you give me an example of such a form of curiosity? Boys like learning lists of names and stats. You'll have met boys who can give you a very long list of dinosaur names or pokemon or supercars. But that's just rote recitation of facts; there's nothing in there about why things are how they are. Feynmann gives an interesting anecdote about his father talking about birds and trees. He'd rarely give just the name, but he would talk about why the tree had broad leaves or such.
      - Cushman 14y ago
        Sorry, are you implying that there are kids out there who are drilling a list of dinosaur names every night without any interest in what those dinosaurs looked like, or sounded like, or ate? Every kid who's ever wanted to tell me about all the X she knows hasn't been able to wait to tell me all kinds of facts and details about each X, and was eager to hear if I knew something interesting about X. That's not rote recitation; that's knowledge.
    - fatbird 14y ago
      The problem with Step 1 is "all". The whole point of my initial post is that children vary, and the methods by which they're educated need to vary as well. "All children will be lead into the forest by an experienced guide who will let their curiosity guide them in a journey of self-exploration" is just as wrong. Can you give me an example of such a form of curiosity? My friend's son is endlessly curious about dinosaurs, so much so that he refuses to invest any time in math homework. In general, curiosity leads to specialization, which is great only to the extent that it doesn't preclude some time being exposed to other subjects. Curiosity is like having a favourite food: Children need to learn a balanced diet, lest they die of malnutrition for eating nothing but candy.