4 ms·

I've worked with a lot of programmers. Some of them have character flaws that make them unpleasant to work with. These character flaws do not affect their abili

by Claudus 14y ago

I've worked with a lot of programmers. Some of them have character flaws that make them unpleasant to work with. These character flaws do not affect their ability to "get the job done", but I'd rather not work with them and take steps to avoid doing so when possible. From a link in the article: Renowned conductors have asserted that female musicians have "smaller techniques," are more temperamental and are simply unsuitable for orchestras I think that "simply unsuitable for orchestras" is vague and unquantifiable, but "smaller techniques" and "more temperamental" seem like assertions that could be challenged. I have a general concept of what "smaller technique" means, is this something that is difficult to measure in a standard audition? Do female musicians in fact have "smaller technique" in general? Are female musicians "more temperamental" than male musicians in general? Is there a male equivalent of a "diva", if not does that support the assertion that female musicians are more temperamental? Can you determine how temperamental someone is from a blind audition? Is temperament a valid reason to not hire someone? To me, these senior conductors, scientists, etc. are asserting that, in general, women differ from men in certain dimensions that factor into hiring decisions but are not detectable in initial screening process. If you really want to end sexism, I feel like these sorts of questions need to be asked and answered. My observation of the subject is that many people have an intuition, gut feeling, opinion formed from personal experience, etc. that men and women in general have innate differences that make men (or women) more suitable for certain functions. The ONLY way that gender bias will ever end is to challenge these ideas and in fact show that these innate differences do not exist. On the other hand, if gender differences do exist, then fighting gender bias is an eternal struggle that will never end. It is human nature to min / max and game the system.

erikpukinskis 14y ago
My observation of the subject is that many people have an intuition, gut feeling, opinion formed from personal experience, etc. that men and women in general have innate differences that make men (or women) more suitable for certain functions. Sounds like you'd like to ignore the science to the contrary and just rely on your gut. You're entitled to that, but I've found science to have a lot of usefulness.
- aptwebapps 14y ago
  I think a more careful reading of the whole post, and particularly the sentence immediately following the one you quoted, will show that Claudus was not claiming that this feeling is true. The statement is that a lot of people feel a particular way. Do you really disagree that is the case? For what it's worth, I think one of the points of the blog post is that this bias is more difficult to spot than Claudus's statement would imply, and I tend to agree with that.
smsm42 14y ago
I have a scary thought. What if you set out to prove they didn't exist and turns out they do? I'm not saying that would necessarily happen but what if it does? Men and women have serious differences both biologically and psychologically... What if it turns out that, for example, statistically female musicians are more temperamental?
- illuminate 14y ago
  It's more scary to think that people think that any of the "qualities" mentioned would make a person an inferior or unhireable candidate for any of these roles. Aside from, of course, simple issues of body build for which a similarly-sized male would also be unsuitable.
  - smsm42 14y ago
    That's a different question. So far I think people are trying to prove that there are actually no difference. If we found out there is a difference and acknowledged it, then depending on a kind of position it could be completely irrelevant or highly relevant. For example, hiring a socially awkward person as a computer programmer is nothing uncommon, but hiring one as a salesman or customer service representative may be unwise. Other qualities may have similar effects.
_Dude_ 14y ago
"The ONLY way that gender bias will ever end is to challenge these ideas and in fact show that these innate differences do not exist." The problem is that if you really do proper scientific examination of mental capabilities between genders and races you might not like the results. Results might turn out to be ugly and incompatible with the modern democracy. What will we do then?
- andreasvc 14y ago
  Science can tell you the way things are, but not how they should be. There might be biological sex differences related to intellectual capacities, sure. But what we are certain of is that humans in general operate with irrational biases and prejudices, such that even in the absence of such differences, people will be treated unfairly.
- glomph 14y ago
  The commitment to equality should not be based on any assumption about 'mental capabilities'. Supposing (against the general scientific consensus) for the sake of argument, that you could show that women had on average less 'mental capabilities' why should that lessen our commitment to fair evaluations in employment or an equal consideration of interests? We think people should be treated equally not because they are the same, but because they deserve equal consideration. Women are people and they deserve to be treated as such. Frankly the way I see it the cost of dehumanising half the population is far higher than potentially employing people who belong to a group that has on average less 'mental capabilities' than another. Further unless your study shows that all men have stronger 'mental capabilities' than all women* it still makes sense to evaluate on a case by case bases and not generalisations, even if we only think about hiring the 'best' person for the job. To pass over someone who is talented because they happen to be the same gender as people who had a lower average score in some intelligence test doesn't make sense even thinking only about getting the best person for the job.
PeterisP 14y ago
Gender differences definitely do exist - the question to prove is if they are small or orthogonal to actual ability, or somehow relevant. For example, if a job position requires hauling refrigerators to customers, then the requirements do favor males, and a genetic subset of them with large body frames. The question is, if any of this actually applies to positions such as orchestra musician or mathematician? There are many studies about significant differences between twins caused by a single gene expression. There are studies about differences in physical properties, mental abilities and inherited diseases linked to genes of ethnic/racial groups - I believe the Ashkenazi case is the most popular, but there are others. And there are numerous studies about male/female differences - for example, in expressiveness of agression, average temperament and different cooperate/defect-style decisions in game theory and econometrics experiments. But it all is irrelevant - the whole concept of gender/race/etc equality is that it is grossly unfair to use group-membership to judge individuals, and we should evaluate each person on her/his own merits.
illuminate 14y ago
"If you really want to end sexism, I feel like these sorts of questions need to be asked and answered." The problem is generally that the people who do so ask and answer them on an individual level, using an unhealthy amount of selection bias.

by Claudus 14y ago

erikpukinskis 14y ago

My observation of the subject is that many people have an intuition, gut feeling, opinion formed from personal experience, etc. that men and women in general have innate differences that make men (or women) more suitable for certain functions. Sounds like you'd like to ignore the science to the contrary and just rely on your gut. You're entitled to that, but I've found science to have a lot of usefulness.

aptwebapps 14y ago
I think a more careful reading of the whole post, and particularly the sentence immediately following the one you quoted, will show that Claudus was not claiming that this feeling is true. The statement is that a lot of people feel a particular way. Do you really disagree that is the case? For what it's worth, I think one of the points of the blog post is that this bias is more difficult to spot than Claudus's statement would imply, and I tend to agree with that.

smsm42 14y ago

I have a scary thought. What if you set out to prove they didn't exist and turns out they do? I'm not saying that would necessarily happen but what if it does? Men and women have serious differences both biologically and psychologically... What if it turns out that, for example, statistically female musicians are more temperamental?

illuminate 14y ago
It's more scary to think that people think that any of the "qualities" mentioned would make a person an inferior or unhireable candidate for any of these roles. Aside from, of course, simple issues of body build for which a similarly-sized male would also be unsuitable.
- smsm42 14y ago
  That's a different question. So far I think people are trying to prove that there are actually no difference. If we found out there is a difference and acknowledged it, then depending on a kind of position it could be completely irrelevant or highly relevant. For example, hiring a socially awkward person as a computer programmer is nothing uncommon, but hiring one as a salesman or customer service representative may be unwise. Other qualities may have similar effects.

_Dude_ 14y ago

"The ONLY way that gender bias will ever end is to challenge these ideas and in fact show that these innate differences do not exist." The problem is that if you really do proper scientific examination of mental capabilities between genders and races you might not like the results. Results might turn out to be ugly and incompatible with the modern democracy. What will we do then?

andreasvc 14y ago
Science can tell you the way things are, but not how they should be. There might be biological sex differences related to intellectual capacities, sure. But what we are certain of is that humans in general operate with irrational biases and prejudices, such that even in the absence of such differences, people will be treated unfairly.
glomph 14y ago
The commitment to equality should not be based on any assumption about 'mental capabilities'. Supposing (against the general scientific consensus) for the sake of argument, that you could show that women had on average less 'mental capabilities' why should that lessen our commitment to fair evaluations in employment or an equal consideration of interests? We think people should be treated equally not because they are the same, but because they deserve equal consideration. Women are people and they deserve to be treated as such. Frankly the way I see it the cost of dehumanising half the population is far higher than potentially employing people who belong to a group that has on average less 'mental capabilities' than another. Further unless your study shows that all men have stronger 'mental capabilities' than all women* it still makes sense to evaluate on a case by case bases and not generalisations, even if we only think about hiring the 'best' person for the job. To pass over someone who is talented because they happen to be the same gender as people who had a lower average score in some intelligence test doesn't make sense even thinking only about getting the best person for the job.

PeterisP 14y ago

Gender differences definitely do exist - the question to prove is if they are small or orthogonal to actual ability, or somehow relevant. For example, if a job position requires hauling refrigerators to customers, then the requirements do favor males, and a genetic subset of them with large body frames. The question is, if any of this actually applies to positions such as orchestra musician or mathematician? There are many studies about significant differences between twins caused by a single gene expression. There are studies about differences in physical properties, mental abilities and inherited diseases linked to genes of ethnic/racial groups - I believe the Ashkenazi case is the most popular, but there are others. And there are numerous studies about male/female differences - for example, in expressiveness of agression, average temperament and different cooperate/defect-style decisions in game theory and econometrics experiments. But it all is irrelevant - the whole concept of gender/race/etc equality is that it is grossly unfair to use group-membership to judge individuals, and we should evaluate each person on her/his own merits.

illuminate 14y ago

"If you really want to end sexism, I feel like these sorts of questions need to be asked and answered." The problem is generally that the people who do so ask and answer them on an individual level, using an unhealthy amount of selection bias.