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So I guess I think that you might be well advised to go to the dean and say "listen, we pay you good money, and we expect our instructors to actually do their j

So I guess I think that you might be well advised to go to the dean and say "listen, we pay you good money, and we expect our instructors to actually do their jobs, rather than to farm them out to machines." At the same time - and I mean no disrespect - this is community college we're talking about. The purpose of community college is to pick up skills, rather than a liberal arts education; you should, at that price, expect to get a somewhat reduced response. I am with you here; this seems lazy and inappropriate. But you get what you pay for. OKCCC is $75 a credit hour. By contrast, my alma mater currently charges $24,000 per year (out of state,) and nominal is 15 credits a year. Even trade schools tend to cost several hundred dollars a credit hour. At that kind of price difference, you have to realize that you're forcing a lot of corner cutting.

pasbesoin 14y ago
You could also argue that the state and community pay a lot towards this professor and, depending upon active participation, his administration. He or they appear to be "ripping off" these entities. Communities fund community colleges particularly for the purpose of building localized skill sets, thereby improving said communities. There's a lot of financial stress in the U.S., these days. Nonetheless, the community should know what they are getting. Both for their money, and in terms of opportunity when it is their turn (whether directly, or through the workers they hire). Many community colleges (including some in my area) used to have quite good reputations. It was not simply a linear function of "the student gets what the student directly pays for". Nor, I think, should it be. There should be some accommodation for merit, different rates of "maturity" or readiness and timing for college academics, hardship, etc. Also for opportunities for life-long education. Community colleges play an essential role in fulfilling this. And it shouldn't be a cut-rate, McEducation.
dalke 14y ago
You are inappropriately harsh. Students go to a CC for several reasons. Some go to a CC because it's cheaper and closer to home. These people plan to transfer to a 4 year college after getting an associate's degree. Others didn't do so well in high school and want additional remedial courses before going to a 4 year college. In many states, it's easy to transfer from a CC to a 4 year state college, because the additional work needed for an AA degree is more meaningful than the work to graduate from high school. For example, "The regents of the University of California report that 30 percent of UC graduates attended a community college before transferring to the UC." Yes, as you say, CC is also for career education. It's also for non-credit/continuing education. I took several CC classes in the latter category. And the comparison of OKCCC to your alma mater is almost useless. Better would be to compare to Oklahoma State where it's $147.50/credit hour. (There's another roughly $110/credit hour in "fees". For an arts&sciences degree, the overall cost is about $275/credit hour. For OKCCC it's $99/credit hour, including fees.) The "corner cutting" doesn't need to be in the education. The mandatory fees for OSU include "student union renovation", "campus recreation", "Academic Excellence", "Library Automation & Technology", "Life Safety & Security", and others. Since many people go to a CC because it's local, they are less likely to spend time in the student union or in on-campus recreation so the corresponding fees are smaller. The library at a CC is likely smaller, and less in need of automation. Also, the lab equipment for a two year program doesn't need to be as advanced. My 4 year college upper-level physics lab had microwave generators, an x-ray crystallography machine, and a radiation source. Why should a CC also have them? These aren't cutting corners, these are inappropriate expenses for the goal of the students and the school. That said, a CC program isn't going to have tenured research professors in a field teaching an introduction course, and won't have the fellowship/intern programs in place, or foreign exchange programs. These can (indirectly) affect the quality of education. But to say that these are all cut corners is to idealize what an education must be.
- JohnHaugeland 14y ago
  > Students go to a CC for several reasons. Yes. For some time I was one of them. I am uncertain why you interpret what I said to be harsh. Respectfully, it seems to me like saying "look, at the price you pay at McDonald's, there's not enough money floating around to get a filet." This is realism, not harshness. It costs a lot of money to run a school, and the US doesn't really fund its community colleges. . > And the comparison of OKCCC to your alma mater is almost useless. It would be nice if, while saying I'm being inappropriately harsh, you differentiate between something that's useless and something you merely do not understand the use of. . > These aren't cutting corners, these are inappropriate expenses Sure. They're also not even slightly the dominant costs in running a school, and not what I referred to. But you're right, the topics you raised, that I did not, aren't particularly cut corners. . > That said, a CC program isn't going to have tenured research professors in a field teaching an introduction course, and won't have the fellowship/intern programs in place, or foreign exchange programs. These can (indirectly) affect the quality of education. My my. And here I thought you didn't agree with me. Of course, these also aren't the dominant costs in running a school, and also aren't what I was talking about. As a point of preference, I generally ask someone to explain themselves before calling them wrong in public. But maybe that's just because I don't like arguing with my own guesses about what someone meant. YMMV. . > But to say that these are all cut corners is to idealize what an education must be. I would request that you re-read what I said more carefully. The things you point out aren't actually related to what I was discussing.

pasbesoin 14y ago

You could also argue that the state and community pay a lot towards this professor and, depending upon active participation, his administration. He or they appear to be "ripping off" these entities. Communities fund community colleges particularly for the purpose of building localized skill sets, thereby improving said communities. There's a lot of financial stress in the U.S., these days. Nonetheless, the community should know what they are getting. Both for their money, and in terms of opportunity when it is their turn (whether directly, or through the workers they hire). Many community colleges (including some in my area) used to have quite good reputations. It was not simply a linear function of "the student gets what the student directly pays for". Nor, I think, should it be. There should be some accommodation for merit, different rates of "maturity" or readiness and timing for college academics, hardship, etc. Also for opportunities for life-long education. Community colleges play an essential role in fulfilling this. And it shouldn't be a cut-rate, McEducation.

dalke 14y ago

You are inappropriately harsh. Students go to a CC for several reasons. Some go to a CC because it's cheaper and closer to home. These people plan to transfer to a 4 year college after getting an associate's degree. Others didn't do so well in high school and want additional remedial courses before going to a 4 year college. In many states, it's easy to transfer from a CC to a 4 year state college, because the additional work needed for an AA degree is more meaningful than the work to graduate from high school. For example, "The regents of the University of California report that 30 percent of UC graduates attended a community college before transferring to the UC." Yes, as you say, CC is also for career education. It's also for non-credit/continuing education. I took several CC classes in the latter category. And the comparison of OKCCC to your alma mater is almost useless. Better would be to compare to Oklahoma State where it's $147.50/credit hour. (There's another roughly $110/credit hour in "fees". For an arts&sciences degree, the overall cost is about $275/credit hour. For OKCCC it's $99/credit hour, including fees.) The "corner cutting" doesn't need to be in the education. The mandatory fees for OSU include "student union renovation", "campus recreation", "Academic Excellence", "Library Automation & Technology", "Life Safety & Security", and others. Since many people go to a CC because it's local, they are less likely to spend time in the student union or in on-campus recreation so the corresponding fees are smaller. The library at a CC is likely smaller, and less in need of automation. Also, the lab equipment for a two year program doesn't need to be as advanced. My 4 year college upper-level physics lab had microwave generators, an x-ray crystallography machine, and a radiation source. Why should a CC also have them? These aren't cutting corners, these are inappropriate expenses for the goal of the students and the school. That said, a CC program isn't going to have tenured research professors in a field teaching an introduction course, and won't have the fellowship/intern programs in place, or foreign exchange programs. These can (indirectly) affect the quality of education. But to say that these are all cut corners is to idealize what an education must be.

JohnHaugeland 14y ago
> Students go to a CC for several reasons. Yes. For some time I was one of them. I am uncertain why you interpret what I said to be harsh. Respectfully, it seems to me like saying "look, at the price you pay at McDonald's, there's not enough money floating around to get a filet." This is realism, not harshness. It costs a lot of money to run a school, and the US doesn't really fund its community colleges. . > And the comparison of OKCCC to your alma mater is almost useless. It would be nice if, while saying I'm being inappropriately harsh, you differentiate between something that's useless and something you merely do not understand the use of. . > These aren't cutting corners, these are inappropriate expenses Sure. They're also not even slightly the dominant costs in running a school, and not what I referred to. But you're right, the topics you raised, that I did not, aren't particularly cut corners. . > That said, a CC program isn't going to have tenured research professors in a field teaching an introduction course, and won't have the fellowship/intern programs in place, or foreign exchange programs. These can (indirectly) affect the quality of education. My my. And here I thought you didn't agree with me. Of course, these also aren't the dominant costs in running a school, and also aren't what I was talking about. As a point of preference, I generally ask someone to explain themselves before calling them wrong in public. But maybe that's just because I don't like arguing with my own guesses about what someone meant. YMMV. . > But to say that these are all cut corners is to idealize what an education must be. I would request that you re-read what I said more carefully. The things you point out aren't actually related to what I was discussing.