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The question from previous discussion remains unanswered. How does he finance his production of top notch open source software? At least for me, the day to day

by yorak 14y ago

The question from previous discussion remains unanswered. How does he finance his production of top notch open source software? At least for me, the day to day churn of my day job leaves me too mentally exhausted to chase the crazy ideas I get from time to time, let alone finish them. Imagine a world where hackers, artists and artisans could follow their passions and could chase crazy ideas without a risk of losing the roof on top of their heads and butter over their bread. How many Bellards, we as a humanity, would have running around flinging great code, solving great problems and giving away the fruits of their hard work? I think we could afford it if we really wanted. If the world just accepted that because of automation fewer and fewer people are needed to work in production (food, items etc.) a huge untapped innovative potential is waiting to be unleashed. In playing Civilization this would be easy, just a click and your society has changed the emphasis of it's production to sciences and art. But how to do this in real life? I guess I just have to wait and see if the government of Finland gets around and issues citizen’s income as propagated by the Green party. That would be a start and the consequences would be really interesting to see.

fijal 14y ago
I'm essentially doing it. It's hard. You have to quit your job and organize income. For me it's a combination of open source donations and consulting with living in a relatively low income (and low cost) country, so consulting can pay for a lot more, if you do it on a global scale.
- jzawodn 14y ago
  Where do you live?
  - Marwy 14y ago
    Since he's Polish my guess is Poland.
    - fijal 14y ago
      Cape Town, SA
antirez 14y ago
In France and many other places in Europe is common to work 36 hours per week, so you have a reasonable amount of time to do your own stuff.
- raverbashing 14y ago
  You actually work 40h/w (usually) and then consolidate the 4 extra hours into a day (or days) off.
  - Someone 14y ago
    "Four times nine" (four days of nine hours each week) also is popular, as is "every second Wednesday is a day off". Employers like these because they do not build up vast reserves of free days. If you collect four hours off each week for 36 weeks, you have collected four working weeks of holidays. Add the regular 4-5 weeks of holidays and some national holidays, and you can almost take a three month vacation.
AlexDanger 14y ago
>How does he finance his production of top notch open source software? Check his webpage notes regarding the 4G LTE implementation. Its commercialised to a company called Amarisoft and it appears Fabrice is involved in that. Look at their client list...government and telcos. I'd speculate its quite a profitable enterprise. http://www.amarisoft.com/?p=about http://www.amarisoft.com/?p=about
robotmay 14y ago
I feel exactly the same. I enjoy my work but by the time it gets to the evening I need a break, and I never manage to find the time to hack on fun side projects. I have so many silly ideas and things I want to hack on; I really want to get back into programming just for the hell of it.
davedx 14y ago
It's one of the main reasons I decided to become a freelancer. I've been at it for a few months and I can now pull in 5-6k euros for a month long project. This leaves me the option to either work the whole year if I can keep things pipelined and come out with a really nice income, or spend decent chunks of time on my own projects. I'm currently still figuring out the balance between those two. Just had a week off between projects, for example. The only thing is, I actually work harder on my freelance projects and have less "idle time" than in permanent positions, so I am a bit more tired during projects.
- X-Istence 14y ago
  How do you get started with this?
marknutter 14y ago
But if the problems you're solving are truly great, then they would be worth enough money to fund your development effort.
- yorak 14y ago
  There is a flaw in your rationale. Creative endeavours are a high risk activity. Heck, just see how big % of startups fail. Also, we do not know how many failed projects Bellard has started (I'd suspect hundreds?). Us mere mortars have bills to play and children to support. It makes us unable to take on the challenges that could potentially lead to huge gains because the short term rewards are not guaranteed. Also measuring every step of progress with monetary value does not work. New discovery (or project, or tool, whatever) may be the first step required on a long path to a great discovery, but by itself, worth €/$ 0 to everybody.
cookiecaper 14y ago
>But how to do this in real life? Mormonism prescribes an entire system for this called "The United Order", if you're really interested in a unique answer to that question. Happy to field your questions about it.
- nekopa 14y ago
  One question: how do you go about removing human nature from this interesting idea? As is true with most noble ideas, it always falls over because some person is going to twist it to suit their ends. Communism is a fantastic idea until you find out that 'Some animals are more equal than others' How does 'The United Order' deal with this? Edit: spelling (iPad use in a pub is highly discouraged)
  - cookiecaper 14y ago
    Participation is totally voluntary. Private ownership still exists. When someone is dissatisfied, they can seek redress within the system, and if they find that unsatisfactory they can leave with little impedance. It's a voluntary co-op, not a compulsory governmental program. While human nature will exist, widespread tyranny and/or compulsion is not a function of The United Order, and those inclined to prefer that nature over discipline or concern for the group are free to do so, and they are free to pursue whatever opportunities they would like on the outside. Control is very local, administered by bishops who supervise a few hundred people. Unless there was blatant misappropriation or significant credible protest, a bishop's dispensations would likely go unchallenged. Broad centralized programs that cause trouble for some unforgotten little guy are not plausible in a scenario where control is so widely dispensed and so locally focused. Of course, there's a religious element to this. We believe the bishop has the right to be led by revelation in these duties, so that dilutes a lot of otherwise intractable social ramifications of such an organization. If a man has been ordained by the prophet to do a thing, tolerance is much, much higher than otherwise, and peace is much more likely to be kept despite individual disagreements. By extension, Mormons further believe that those who accept the judgment of the bishop with the recognition that their bishop is the authorized representative of God in that matter, even if it opposes their personal judgment or opinion, will be lead and blessed such that they become the wealthiest people on earth many, many times over, incomprehensibly more wealthy than contemporary Western nations. Mormon eschatology, in fact, indicates that a society operating under these conditions will be the only place of prosperity on the whole earth for a time, and everyone else will be at war and unable to cooperate sufficiently to sustain any significant productive output.
philwelch 14y ago
One of the only reasons there's so much automation is because programmers still work for a living--namely, doing all that automation. We're exactly the workers who can't be spared.
undershirt 14y ago
I finance my open source software like I do with all my hobbies, by having a day job and doing what I can on nights and weekends. Incremental effort, patience, and commitment are important for side projects that are funded like this. And I respectfully call bullshit on mental exhaustion. The true burnout comes after juggling your personal work and your day job, which you can fix by throttling back your personal work. Unlike your day job, you can control the pressure there. I don't know, that's my experience.
- w0utert 14y ago
  The most inspiring and insightful comment I've read on this a while ago was: "you'll be surprised how much you can accomplish with just half an hour every other day", from someone with a day job, a family, and other hobbies besides programming side-projects. There really is truth in this, most people (myself included) often lose confidence and motivation when thinking too much about the amount of work to complete side-projects, but you only have to remember there are over 300 days in a year, and you can get a lot done in 150 hours of work. Don't set hard deadlines for yourself as if you're working for someone else, and don't get lost in minor details. Just maintain slow but steady progress, and chances are progress will accelerate when projects start to get closer to completion.
- marvin 14y ago
  Not all people have the capacity to do ambitious personal projects on top of their day job. I've tried, ended up with burnout and depression. So controlling the pressure means never planning to do something big on the side outside of holidays or other time off work. It's nice that you're able to do it like this, but your approach won't work for everyone. People have different capacities for doing organized stuff. My limit is at about 8 hours a day, five days a week.
  - jhartmann 14y ago
    I think people would be very surprised what they are capable of doing. I have been working 80-100 hours per week since March of last year, and before I worked a pretty standard 45 and 'had no time'. I am actually more productive with my time, help my wife more, and still read business books and novels at a pretty good clip. My biggest two tips are to wake up early and get things done before work, and truly love what you are working on. I wake up around 4 am and go to sleep around 9 pm most nights, and that is a pretty reasonable schedule for me now. It didn't start out that way, but you would be surprised what becomes normal when you push yourself. I would wager you are capable of a lot more then 8 hours a day, five days a week.
dfox 14y ago
At least for me doing meaningful hacking as part of my daytime consulting inspires me to work on my side projects in evening/during night instead of tiring me. On the other hand day spent doing nothing of direct value (paperwork, useless meetings and so on) leads to evening spend by essentially doing nothing.

by yorak 14y ago

fijal 14y ago

I'm essentially doing it. It's hard. You have to quit your job and organize income. For me it's a combination of open source donations and consulting with living in a relatively low income (and low cost) country, so consulting can pay for a lot more, if you do it on a global scale.

jzawodn 14y ago
Where do you live?
- Marwy 14y ago
  Since he's Polish my guess is Poland.
  - fijal 14y ago
    Cape Town, SA

antirez 14y ago

In France and many other places in Europe is common to work 36 hours per week, so you have a reasonable amount of time to do your own stuff.

raverbashing 14y ago
You actually work 40h/w (usually) and then consolidate the 4 extra hours into a day (or days) off.
- Someone 14y ago
  "Four times nine" (four days of nine hours each week) also is popular, as is "every second Wednesday is a day off". Employers like these because they do not build up vast reserves of free days. If you collect four hours off each week for 36 weeks, you have collected four working weeks of holidays. Add the regular 4-5 weeks of holidays and some national holidays, and you can almost take a three month vacation.

AlexDanger 14y ago

>How does he finance his production of top notch open source software? Check his webpage notes regarding the 4G LTE implementation. Its commercialised to a company called Amarisoft and it appears Fabrice is involved in that. Look at their client list...government and telcos. I'd speculate its quite a profitable enterprise. http://www.amarisoft.com/?p=about http://www.amarisoft.com/?p=about

robotmay 14y ago

I feel exactly the same. I enjoy my work but by the time it gets to the evening I need a break, and I never manage to find the time to hack on fun side projects. I have so many silly ideas and things I want to hack on; I really want to get back into programming just for the hell of it.

davedx 14y ago

It's one of the main reasons I decided to become a freelancer. I've been at it for a few months and I can now pull in 5-6k euros for a month long project. This leaves me the option to either work the whole year if I can keep things pipelined and come out with a really nice income, or spend decent chunks of time on my own projects. I'm currently still figuring out the balance between those two. Just had a week off between projects, for example. The only thing is, I actually work harder on my freelance projects and have less "idle time" than in permanent positions, so I am a bit more tired during projects.

X-Istence 14y ago
How do you get started with this?

marknutter 14y ago

But if the problems you're solving are truly great, then they would be worth enough money to fund your development effort.

yorak 14y ago
There is a flaw in your rationale. Creative endeavours are a high risk activity. Heck, just see how big % of startups fail. Also, we do not know how many failed projects Bellard has started (I'd suspect hundreds?). Us mere mortars have bills to play and children to support. It makes us unable to take on the challenges that could potentially lead to huge gains because the short term rewards are not guaranteed. Also measuring every step of progress with monetary value does not work. New discovery (or project, or tool, whatever) may be the first step required on a long path to a great discovery, but by itself, worth €/$ 0 to everybody.

cookiecaper 14y ago

>But how to do this in real life? Mormonism prescribes an entire system for this called "The United Order", if you're really interested in a unique answer to that question. Happy to field your questions about it.

nekopa 14y ago
One question: how do you go about removing human nature from this interesting idea? As is true with most noble ideas, it always falls over because some person is going to twist it to suit their ends. Communism is a fantastic idea until you find out that 'Some animals are more equal than others' How does 'The United Order' deal with this? Edit: spelling (iPad use in a pub is highly discouraged)
- cookiecaper 14y ago
  Participation is totally voluntary. Private ownership still exists. When someone is dissatisfied, they can seek redress within the system, and if they find that unsatisfactory they can leave with little impedance. It's a voluntary co-op, not a compulsory governmental program. While human nature will exist, widespread tyranny and/or compulsion is not a function of The United Order, and those inclined to prefer that nature over discipline or concern for the group are free to do so, and they are free to pursue whatever opportunities they would like on the outside. Control is very local, administered by bishops who supervise a few hundred people. Unless there was blatant misappropriation or significant credible protest, a bishop's dispensations would likely go unchallenged. Broad centralized programs that cause trouble for some unforgotten little guy are not plausible in a scenario where control is so widely dispensed and so locally focused. Of course, there's a religious element to this. We believe the bishop has the right to be led by revelation in these duties, so that dilutes a lot of otherwise intractable social ramifications of such an organization. If a man has been ordained by the prophet to do a thing, tolerance is much, much higher than otherwise, and peace is much more likely to be kept despite individual disagreements. By extension, Mormons further believe that those who accept the judgment of the bishop with the recognition that their bishop is the authorized representative of God in that matter, even if it opposes their personal judgment or opinion, will be lead and blessed such that they become the wealthiest people on earth many, many times over, incomprehensibly more wealthy than contemporary Western nations. Mormon eschatology, in fact, indicates that a society operating under these conditions will be the only place of prosperity on the whole earth for a time, and everyone else will be at war and unable to cooperate sufficiently to sustain any significant productive output.

philwelch 14y ago

One of the only reasons there's so much automation is because programmers still work for a living--namely, doing all that automation. We're exactly the workers who can't be spared.

undershirt 14y ago

I finance my open source software like I do with all my hobbies, by having a day job and doing what I can on nights and weekends. Incremental effort, patience, and commitment are important for side projects that are funded like this. And I respectfully call bullshit on mental exhaustion. The true burnout comes after juggling your personal work and your day job, which you can fix by throttling back your personal work. Unlike your day job, you can control the pressure there. I don't know, that's my experience.

w0utert 14y ago
The most inspiring and insightful comment I've read on this a while ago was: "you'll be surprised how much you can accomplish with just half an hour every other day", from someone with a day job, a family, and other hobbies besides programming side-projects. There really is truth in this, most people (myself included) often lose confidence and motivation when thinking too much about the amount of work to complete side-projects, but you only have to remember there are over 300 days in a year, and you can get a lot done in 150 hours of work. Don't set hard deadlines for yourself as if you're working for someone else, and don't get lost in minor details. Just maintain slow but steady progress, and chances are progress will accelerate when projects start to get closer to completion.
marvin 14y ago
Not all people have the capacity to do ambitious personal projects on top of their day job. I've tried, ended up with burnout and depression. So controlling the pressure means never planning to do something big on the side outside of holidays or other time off work. It's nice that you're able to do it like this, but your approach won't work for everyone. People have different capacities for doing organized stuff. My limit is at about 8 hours a day, five days a week.
- jhartmann 14y ago
  I think people would be very surprised what they are capable of doing. I have been working 80-100 hours per week since March of last year, and before I worked a pretty standard 45 and 'had no time'. I am actually more productive with my time, help my wife more, and still read business books and novels at a pretty good clip. My biggest two tips are to wake up early and get things done before work, and truly love what you are working on. I wake up around 4 am and go to sleep around 9 pm most nights, and that is a pretty reasonable schedule for me now. It didn't start out that way, but you would be surprised what becomes normal when you push yourself. I would wager you are capable of a lot more then 8 hours a day, five days a week.

dfox 14y ago

At least for me doing meaningful hacking as part of my daytime consulting inspires me to work on my side projects in evening/during night instead of tiring me. On the other hand day spent doing nothing of direct value (paperwork, useless meetings and so on) leads to evening spend by essentially doing nothing.