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Well, the guy has a obvious leftish slant in some of his opinions. But excluding his pontual opinions on some issues, he is mostly correct. And that is very u

by speeder 14y ago

Well, the guy has a obvious leftish slant in some of his opinions. But excluding his pontual opinions on some issues, he is mostly correct. And that is very unfortunate. But what else can we expect? Democracy, is only good as the people voting. Take a look at what happened in Egypt, people wanted democracy, removed the dictator, then the sunni majority of the country obviously elected those they wanted, a sunni guy. Then he changed the constitution a little, the constitution is almost the same, and in most areas improved, there are one thing that is very questionable: Instead of the laws being "inspired" by Sharia, now they are "inspired" by Sharia according to sunni islam. Bang, there you are, the other half of the country, mostly non-sunni muslims and christians, are very upset, and screw democracy, now we want you to come out of power because if you don't we will throw molotovs in your palace. EDIT replying the guy below, because I got seemly slowbanned or something (I am getting the message "You're submitting too fast. Please slow down. Thanks."): Oh, I am from Brazil, to me US center is right... (I say that US has two parties: right, and even more right). But I am referring to gay marriage (it is a traditional point of the left, specially if you are a follower of Frankfurt School or of Gramsci) and drug decriminalization (Another point that the left likes more than the right). I am personally against gay marriage (actually my opinions in marriage are quite complex) and pro decriminalization.

arethuza 14y ago
Out of interest what points would you say give it a "leftish slant"? NB I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely interested as it seemed fairly neutral to me. But then again I am the same nationality as Charlie.
- dsr_ 14y ago
  Seen over and over again in the comments on Charlie's blog -- and elsewhere -- is that the perceived center for the USA is well to the right of the center for the UK. This may actually represent a basic difference of opinion, but I suspect it is simply another (set of?) chaotic attractor on the acceptable spectrum of debate points.
  - humanrebar 14y ago
    I would argue that the American right and British have similarities but that they desire fundamentally different things. For example, enhanced federalism isn't a primary goal of the British right.
    - arethuza 14y ago
      "enhanced federalism isn't a primary goal of the British right" I suspected for a while that the leadership of the Conservative party (and a lot of Conservative voters) would be delighted to see Scotland getting independence, but they can't really say that publically. Similarly, I suspect the leadership of the Scottish National Party would be horrified if we actually got independence as what I suspect they really want is to maximise what Scotland gets as part of the UK. Obviously, they can't say this either....
- pmorici 14y ago
  I'm guessing he is a fan of these policies, "But we've somehow slid into a developed-world global-scale quasi-police state, with drone strikes and extraordinary rendition and unquestioned but insane austerity policies being rammed down our throats, government services being outsourced, peaceful protesters being pepper-sprayed, tased, or even killed, police spying on political dissidents becoming normal, and so on."
- Udo 14y ago
  It's one point CS missed in this otherwise excellent article: the redefinition of words robs the public of the ability to discuss certain concepts. In this case, the label "leftist" (= meaning "bad") is now commonly applied to people worried about issues of social and civil justice, people who engage in political dissent, criticizing corporations and their influence, being non-conformant with the all-pervading religious undertow, being wary of "law & order", or applying scientific methods and solutions to political problems. As such, the leftist label is in common usage as a curse word that automatically taints dissidents, but from what I can tell it's happening in American lingo only. I believe you can also tell public overexposure to Fox News by looking at the frequent invokation of Sharia law, as shown in this sentence which is somewhat resistant to semantic analysis: > Instead of the laws being "inspired" by Sharia, now they are "inspired" by Sharia according to sunni islam. It's ironic though that Sharia law is often portrayed as one of the main threats to freedom by people who actually favor the western equivalent of Sharia in the sense that they, just like islamic extremists, want a justice system that closely resembles a religiously infused small-town court system with broad powers to regulate everyday personal affairs, such as who you are allowed to have sex with and many other "morality"-based legal decisions.
  - humanrebar 14y ago
    I don't know. I think left-of-center types could take back "leftist" and similar labels if they wanted to. See "queer", "geek", the mascots of both American parties, etc. It's confusing why you would be complaining about left-of-center being outcast when America has just re-elected a left-of-center president and when the media is awash with "whither the Republican Party?" features. It seems to me that the left is doing fine (if not better) right now.
    - JonnieCache 14y ago
      >America has just re-elected a left-of-center president This is exactly the problem. Everywhere except in the US political bubble he is solidly right wing. The redefinition of people like Obama as left wing is exactly what Udo and others here are talking about.
- alinajaf 14y ago
  > But then again I am the same nationality as Charlie I would point out that the Conservative party in the UK just voted 400-175 in favour of gay marriage.
  - kolektiv 14y ago
    Just to point out that the House of Commons voted that way - that's the combined vote of all parties eligible. The Conservative party was rather split on the issue, I think only a (largish) minority of the Conservative party itself voted in favour (although I can't remember the split offhand). That's still rather better than you would have got a few years ago, but then the Conservative party is now basically split down young/urban/secular-ish and older/rural/religious-ish lines and votes on these issues tend to be somewhat predictable.
    - andyjohnson0 14y ago
      Of 303 Conservative MPs, 139 voted against and 30 abstained. So 44% percent of Conservative MPs were in favour. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9851322/Cameron-accused-of-dividing-Conservatives-as-MPs-rebel-on-gay-marriage-vote.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9851322/Cameron-acc...
  - NickPollard 14y ago
    Actually that's incorrect. The parliament (all parties) voted 400-175 in favour. The ruling Conservative party voted something like ~130-~135 (slightly against, with ~30 abstaining). The point is still valid though - what is considered right wing in the UK would largely be considered left wing in the US.
- humanrebar 14y ago
  Not to criticize the blog's politics, but to inform: "prison-industrial complex", "non-heteronormative", corporations as a primary source of harmful behavior, complaints about privatization, austerity is the problem not overspending You can reach the same broad complaints about modern Western democracy starting from other political alignments, but the particulars he chose point to a left-of-center (but not communist) political alignment.
  - cstross 14y ago
    Well yes, I am left of centre. But I was trying to articulate an argument that doesn't rely on that.
return0 14y ago
'leftist slant ... but' You make it seem as if sounding like a leftist discredits him. In any case, you are right about what happens to the newborn Arab democracies, but these countries have very immature political systems and they are not analogous to the much more mature western systems. Democratic elections is only one feature of a well functioning state, the rule of law and accountability take much longer to grow roots, and only then does democracy show her true value.

by speeder 14y ago

arethuza 14y ago

Out of interest what points would you say give it a "leftish slant"? NB I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely interested as it seemed fairly neutral to me. But then again I am the same nationality as Charlie.

dsr_ 14y ago
Seen over and over again in the comments on Charlie's blog -- and elsewhere -- is that the perceived center for the USA is well to the right of the center for the UK. This may actually represent a basic difference of opinion, but I suspect it is simply another (set of?) chaotic attractor on the acceptable spectrum of debate points.
- humanrebar 14y ago
  I would argue that the American right and British have similarities but that they desire fundamentally different things. For example, enhanced federalism isn't a primary goal of the British right.
  - arethuza 14y ago
    "enhanced federalism isn't a primary goal of the British right" I suspected for a while that the leadership of the Conservative party (and a lot of Conservative voters) would be delighted to see Scotland getting independence, but they can't really say that publically. Similarly, I suspect the leadership of the Scottish National Party would be horrified if we actually got independence as what I suspect they really want is to maximise what Scotland gets as part of the UK. Obviously, they can't say this either....
pmorici 14y ago
I'm guessing he is a fan of these policies, "But we've somehow slid into a developed-world global-scale quasi-police state, with drone strikes and extraordinary rendition and unquestioned but insane austerity policies being rammed down our throats, government services being outsourced, peaceful protesters being pepper-sprayed, tased, or even killed, police spying on political dissidents becoming normal, and so on."
Udo 14y ago
It's one point CS missed in this otherwise excellent article: the redefinition of words robs the public of the ability to discuss certain concepts. In this case, the label "leftist" (= meaning "bad") is now commonly applied to people worried about issues of social and civil justice, people who engage in political dissent, criticizing corporations and their influence, being non-conformant with the all-pervading religious undertow, being wary of "law & order", or applying scientific methods and solutions to political problems. As such, the leftist label is in common usage as a curse word that automatically taints dissidents, but from what I can tell it's happening in American lingo only. I believe you can also tell public overexposure to Fox News by looking at the frequent invokation of Sharia law, as shown in this sentence which is somewhat resistant to semantic analysis: > Instead of the laws being "inspired" by Sharia, now they are "inspired" by Sharia according to sunni islam. It's ironic though that Sharia law is often portrayed as one of the main threats to freedom by people who actually favor the western equivalent of Sharia in the sense that they, just like islamic extremists, want a justice system that closely resembles a religiously infused small-town court system with broad powers to regulate everyday personal affairs, such as who you are allowed to have sex with and many other "morality"-based legal decisions.
- humanrebar 14y ago
  I don't know. I think left-of-center types could take back "leftist" and similar labels if they wanted to. See "queer", "geek", the mascots of both American parties, etc. It's confusing why you would be complaining about left-of-center being outcast when America has just re-elected a left-of-center president and when the media is awash with "whither the Republican Party?" features. It seems to me that the left is doing fine (if not better) right now.
  - JonnieCache 14y ago
    >America has just re-elected a left-of-center president This is exactly the problem. Everywhere except in the US political bubble he is solidly right wing. The redefinition of people like Obama as left wing is exactly what Udo and others here are talking about.
alinajaf 14y ago
> But then again I am the same nationality as Charlie I would point out that the Conservative party in the UK just voted 400-175 in favour of gay marriage.
- kolektiv 14y ago
  Just to point out that the House of Commons voted that way - that's the combined vote of all parties eligible. The Conservative party was rather split on the issue, I think only a (largish) minority of the Conservative party itself voted in favour (although I can't remember the split offhand). That's still rather better than you would have got a few years ago, but then the Conservative party is now basically split down young/urban/secular-ish and older/rural/religious-ish lines and votes on these issues tend to be somewhat predictable.
  - andyjohnson0 14y ago
    Of 303 Conservative MPs, 139 voted against and 30 abstained. So 44% percent of Conservative MPs were in favour. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9851322/Cameron-accused-of-dividing-Conservatives-as-MPs-rebel-on-gay-marriage-vote.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9851322/Cameron-acc...
- NickPollard 14y ago
  Actually that's incorrect. The parliament (all parties) voted 400-175 in favour. The ruling Conservative party voted something like ~130-~135 (slightly against, with ~30 abstaining). The point is still valid though - what is considered right wing in the UK would largely be considered left wing in the US.
humanrebar 14y ago
Not to criticize the blog's politics, but to inform: "prison-industrial complex", "non-heteronormative", corporations as a primary source of harmful behavior, complaints about privatization, austerity is the problem not overspending You can reach the same broad complaints about modern Western democracy starting from other political alignments, but the particulars he chose point to a left-of-center (but not communist) political alignment.
- cstross 14y ago
  Well yes, I am left of centre. But I was trying to articulate an argument that doesn't rely on that.

return0 14y ago

'leftist slant ... but' You make it seem as if sounding like a leftist discredits him. In any case, you are right about what happens to the newborn Arab democracies, but these countries have very immature political systems and they are not analogous to the much more mature western systems. Democratic elections is only one feature of a well functioning state, the rule of law and accountability take much longer to grow roots, and only then does democracy show her true value.