13 ms·

Learning how to attract women to web development

34 points by redsquirrel 14y ago

shanelja 14y ago
I thought the title was 'Learning how to attract women with web development', so the article wasn't exactly what I was expecting, but still a great (if short) read. Could you elaborate further on what you did exactly to get the male attendants percentage to decrease and the effect you think it had? I'm assuming that you expected the female name to draw attention to the fact that a woman was in charge, or something similar, but I will however note than on the second Tweet posted, there were more comments from Males than Females.
- theorique 14y ago
  I thought the title was 'Learning how to attract women with web development' Makes me think: "Hey baby, why don't we go back to my place and I'll demonstrate my database schema" lol. silly.
- redsquirrel 14y ago
  The only way we kept the initial male attendance down was to delay promoting the event through men.
sidcool 14y ago
I read the first 5 words and got excited!!!
- itomek 14y ago
  likewise!
- youngerdryas 14y ago
  Gee, I wonder why women don't feel welcome?
- calgaryeng 14y ago
  To be fair, he could have just been joking....
  - youngerdryas 14y ago
    The problem with telling a joke is that if it isn't funny you look like an asshole.
    - sidcool 14y ago
      Yep, it was a joke. I didn't know HN had no sense of humor. My bad.
nmcfarl 14y ago
Looks like the set out to do this, and succeed with just a few simple changes to the marketing plan and adding Yoga to the days line up. The last seems like a nice technique to me as it sends the message that "women are welcome here" while not saying that in the materials (As such explicit marketing to a particular demo tends to change the feel of the event for everyone else). On the whole quite simple - and in their case effective.
joeycfan 14y ago
Seriously, who cares?
math0ne 14y ago
I got binders...
eliza1wright 14y ago
I was also expecting something different, but I like the overall tone of "Women are welcome here, and they're welcome to speak." I think a lot of tech companies get the first one right, but they don't know how to communicate the second point. With study after study showing that women speak less when surrounded by men, promoting the event woman-to-woman sends a powerful message.
tjic 14y ago
> One of our goals at Dev Bootcamp Chicago is to change the ratio of women in software development: we want a 1:1 ratio in our cohorts. Why? That's a serious question. My hobbies include writing, blacksmithing, cooking, and ceramics. In writing, around half the people are women. In blacksmithing perhaps 3% are women. In cooking probably 90% of the blogs I read and people who take classes are women. In ceramics it's again 90% female. I have absolutely no desire to increase the percentage of women blacksmiths...and I have absolutely no desire to decrease the percentage of women pot throwers. Why should I want to change these? Why do you want to change the ratio in web development?
- eliza1wright 14y ago
  Women can bring different skills to the table; for example, they tend to possess more developed language skills and to be far more engaged in social media. Women are also more likely than men to talk through problems. Those seem like valuable skills, especially in a money-strapped startup environment where everyone wears several hats.
  - alexmat 14y ago
    "Women are also more likely than men to talk through problems." Citation required. Positive stereotypes like this create just as hostile a work environment as negative ones.
    - eliza1wright 14y ago
      Source: http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/curiosity/topics/10-ways-men-women-comminucate-differently.htm http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/curiosity/topics/10-ways-m... The author cites several studies to back up those assertions. Agreed on the positive stereotype bit, though--I think people rely far too much on anecdotal evidence simply because the way that people talk is difficult to distill and quantify.
- AustinGibbons 14y ago
  There are dozens of claims that it is good for women - STEM is a desirable field - yet artificial barriers to entry are created by gender roles. Further, women in technology and leadership positions has been correlated with business success: http://reclaimingleadership.com/why-you-need-women-leading-in-your-organization-%E2%80%93-a-summary-of-the-data-2/ http://reclaimingleadership.com/why-you-need-women-leading-i...
Jemaclus 14y ago
I'm not sure this has anything to do with attracting women to web development. These women were already attracted to web development -- or they wouldn't be in Girl Develop It or any of those other groups, right? This is about DevBootCamp patting themselves on the back for meeting their quota. And regardless, this whole "invite women first" thing doesn't really address the basic gender imbalance problems in the industry. In my experience (and I'm aware that this is perfectly anecdotal), the problem with getting women to be professional web developers has more to do with the industry's attitude toward women and less to do with inviting them in. It does no good to invite 60% women to a conference if they're all going to be treated badly or like sexual objects the entire time. I have two female friends that I am mentoring in web development, and they are super ecstatic to have this extra skill, and they're actually pretty good at it (better than some of my male coworkers, if I'm being honest). But most often they go to conferences and get dismissed because they're women or get harassed because they have boobs (even though some of these men have bigger man-boobs). I hear this over and over again: they don't feel comfortable at industry events or even in the workplace TL;DR - I don't think it's about "attracting" women so much as making the industry gender-agnostic. It shouldn't matter whether I'm male or female, so long as I put out good code.
- mnicole 14y ago
  Great response. At RailsGirls PDX they asked how everyone had found out about the event. I'd found out through a female dev mailing list I'm a part of, but I was really happy to learn that many - if not most - of them had been encouraged by male co-workers, friends and significant others who knew the girl had an interest in dev or just tech, but were intimidated (even by other female developers) and thus didn't take part in existing communities.
- redsquirrel 14y ago
  There's definitely some "patting ourselves of our backs" going on here. I was surprised and proud that we surpassed the ratio that we set for ourselves. I figured I'd share what worked for us. Getting more women to show up may be the easiest part of "changing the ratio". We have lots of other work to do in order to make this stick, which includes working with employers to ensure our students, regardless of gender, are successful after they're hired.
gyardley 14y ago
Pairing an activity with another highly-gendered activity will most definitely change the gender ratio of your combined activities. Here 'yoga' is playing the role 'pizza and beer' does at most hackathons - I know there's tons of exceptions, but generally speaking, women like yoga more than men, and men like eating pizza and drinking beer more than women. I bet you could adjust the gender ratio even more if you mixed in more female-leaning activities - for instance, you could bring in a pedicurist. The social engineer in me wonders what our profession would look like if every technical course over a couple of decades was followed by getting your nails done and a wine tasting.
- dfxm12 14y ago
  Well, their stated goal is a 1:1 ratio of men to women. While their actual result of a 40/60 men to women ratio is closer to their goal than their estimated 85/15 ratio, they still didn't reach it. If having a predominately male crowd at a hackathon is a bad thing, doesn't it also follow that having a predominately female crowd is bad as well? N.B.: I wouldn't call 40/60 predominate, so to me, it seems like their methods were nearly good enough.
  - gyardley 14y ago
    Oh, I wasn't making any judgements. Male crowd, female crowd, whoever the organizers want at their event is perfectly fine by me - after all, it's their event. I'm just interested in the tools they use to get wherever they want to be.
- mnicole 14y ago
  I'm going to be the jerk that says using yoga and pedicures as a means to bring women in might actually be more alienating than welcoming to many of us. I have no interest in any of those activities intermingling, and I think it sends a message that we need to "genderize" things to make them relevant or appealing. Now, even though I'm theoretically being targeted, I feel even more like the odd [wo]man out. Sell me on the fact that I'll be leaving with a product I want to make - something generic like a blog or a store or a social media site. Sell me on the fact that I will be able to know how to design it, maintain it and expand on it by graduation. Sell me on the fact that I'm also going to be around total novices and where gender ratios are equaled out. Show me success stories of men and women alike. Everyone has ambitions and dreams. Not everyone wants to do poses and color their nails.
SkyMarshal 14y ago
One of the best comments on this topic I've seen was by a girl at Stuyvesant on learning computer science: "Before taking the mandated Intro class last year, when I heard 'computer science,' I pictured nerdy boys, who turned into nerdy bearded men, slouched over huge computers and click-clacking out codes that meant nothing to me. There’s nothing wrong with nerdy boys, comp sci just didn’t seem like something I would ever be interested in. "This image was quickly shattered in that first intro class. Computer science started to resonate with me when I worked on my first project, creating a simple animation of a string quartet using Netlogo. It was while I was working on this that I realized comp sci isn’t about nerdy boys sitting at computers and coding out nonsense that turns into violent video games and complicated math problem solvers. No, comp sci isn’t this at all. Comp sci, as I have found in my classes at Stuy, is a medium for expression, a place for creation and creativity." http://betabeat.com/2012/06/real-tales-of-learning-computer-science-as-a-high-school-girl-stuyvesant/#slide2 http://betabeat.com/2012/06/real-tales-of-learning-computer-... This is both true, and probably effective for changing women's perception of the field and attracting more to it.
- cousin_it 14y ago
  Wow. Now I wonder why it took me so long to see this answer, it's so obvious in retrospect. Of course women don't go into CS in large part because they consider male nerds unattractive. Though male sexism is an important reason, I always suspected that it's not the main reason. This explanation sounds offensive, but to me it's quite uplifting. Instead of giving women gifts to compensate for our "creepiness", we need to become non-creepy, and women will come. It's a winning proposition for everyone, no?
  - WalterSear 14y ago
    You aren't creepy. This particular issue is reverse sexism. But heaven forbid it should ever be seriously discussed while there are all those 'neckbeards' out there to point fingers at.
    - cousin_it 14y ago
bvcqw 14y ago
We don't need more people to flood the market lowering wages.
sixbrx 14y ago
I misread this as "How to attract women to web developers". Boy was I disappointed...
zeidrich 14y ago
If I wanted to take up a hobby or skill that I felt was sort of "woman's only" thing, like knitting, I would be uncomfortable joining a stitch 'n bitch group initially, and I'm sure a lot of women would have reservations about a guy popping in to their knit nights. I'm sure some would be thrilled that a guy would take an interest, but it would be a novelty. I would happily learn on my own through Internet tutorials, but I wouldn't have a support community to learn from and bounce ideas off. I think the same sort of feeling would surround women trying to break into a male-dominated activity. I try to think about what might convince me to take steps into a knitting program (assuming I actually wanted to learn). If I expected that it would be completely women I would be more uncomfortable, but if it was more 'professional' and less casual, I would probably be less anxious. I think a professional environment with a sort of "we're here to learn, not chat, not network" would make things easier because there's less social pressure, it's more focus on the task. Likewise, I think a "Beer and Pizza knitting workshop" would be as much a turn-off. I think it's just the idea that it's an emphasis on the social side of it. I know what I am doing is socially different, and the more social and friendly the atmosphere is the more awkward it is to picture. For instance, if I'm going to a class, and the image I conjure is a row of desks or something, someone teaching a technique, maybe coming by individually, helping with a difficult process, answering questions. That's pretty neutral, I can picture myself there. If the image I conjure is a bunch of guys standing around the tailgate of a pick-up truck drinking beer, eating pizza, belching, and talking about their colorwork and cast-on techniques, I'm going to feel uncomfortable. Not only that, I'm going to feel patronized by the class. Now, obviously regardless of the circumstances, the class is not going to be at all like either of those images in my head. But what would cause me to choose to sign up or not has far more basis on that picture. I think if you want to encourage women to join your class, advertise it in a way that makes it look like it's not judgmental, like it's not patronizing. Something that's not some apparantly watered down "web design for women" class. Keep it professional, respectful, and above board. Include women in your advertising material. If I wanted to learn to knit, and I came across a class that wasn't billed as a sort of chatty woman's group but instead just a class on techniques; if it made it apparent in their description that men were welcome; and it wasn't directed at specifically ignorant men who wanted to learn so they could say they can do it too; then I would be comfortable going. Past that, I would have to know it exists, so if there was some sort of men's knitting mailing list that I was on, it would be a good place to send it.
bobzimuta 14y ago
I'm exhausted by this ironic and sexist, never-ending debate of the why and how to get more women into tech. If we* want to treat women equally, why is it our duty to provide support structures and incentives? *we as in the general HN audience, which is safely assumed to be largely male
unreal37 14y ago
I would agree that technology (development) is a field that is not always friendly towards women. Being a male dominated field (like construction, auto mechanics, airline pilots, doctors, lawyers, politics are all male-dominated as well) means that ideas from women are sometimes dismissed simply because they are from women, or unnecessary sexual or sexist comments are made that make women not feel welcome. I think that's an area this industry needs to improve upon, being more welcome. But that's not to say it needs to be 1:1. (There's no high-paid profession that is 1:1, is there?) I think it's valid to question that we need to have an equal ratio, although I agree we have to improve a lot.

34 points by redsquirrel 14y ago

I thought the title was 'Learning how to attract women with web development', so the article wasn't exactly what I was expecting, but still a great (if short) read. Could you elaborate further on what you did exactly to get the male attendants percentage to decrease and the effect you think it had? I'm assuming that you expected the female name to draw attention to the fact that a woman was in charge, or something similar, but I will however note than on the second Tweet posted, there were more comments from Males than Females.

theorique 14y ago
I thought the title was 'Learning how to attract women with web development' Makes me think: "Hey baby, why don't we go back to my place and I'll demonstrate my database schema" lol. silly.
redsquirrel 14y ago
The only way we kept the initial male attendance down was to delay promoting the event through men.

sidcool 14y ago

I read the first 5 words and got excited!!!

itomek 14y ago
likewise!
youngerdryas 14y ago
Gee, I wonder why women don't feel welcome?
calgaryeng 14y ago
To be fair, he could have just been joking....
- youngerdryas 14y ago
  The problem with telling a joke is that if it isn't funny you look like an asshole.
  - sidcool 14y ago
    Yep, it was a joke. I didn't know HN had no sense of humor. My bad.

nmcfarl 14y ago

Looks like the set out to do this, and succeed with just a few simple changes to the marketing plan and adding Yoga to the days line up. The last seems like a nice technique to me as it sends the message that "women are welcome here" while not saying that in the materials (As such explicit marketing to a particular demo tends to change the feel of the event for everyone else). On the whole quite simple - and in their case effective.

joeycfan 14y ago

Seriously, who cares?

math0ne 14y ago

I got binders...

eliza1wright 14y ago

I was also expecting something different, but I like the overall tone of "Women are welcome here, and they're welcome to speak." I think a lot of tech companies get the first one right, but they don't know how to communicate the second point. With study after study showing that women speak less when surrounded by men, promoting the event woman-to-woman sends a powerful message.

tjic 14y ago

> One of our goals at Dev Bootcamp Chicago is to change the ratio of women in software development: we want a 1:1 ratio in our cohorts. Why? That's a serious question. My hobbies include writing, blacksmithing, cooking, and ceramics. In writing, around half the people are women. In blacksmithing perhaps 3% are women. In cooking probably 90% of the blogs I read and people who take classes are women. In ceramics it's again 90% female. I have absolutely no desire to increase the percentage of women blacksmiths...and I have absolutely no desire to decrease the percentage of women pot throwers. Why should I want to change these? Why do you want to change the ratio in web development?

eliza1wright 14y ago
Women can bring different skills to the table; for example, they tend to possess more developed language skills and to be far more engaged in social media. Women are also more likely than men to talk through problems. Those seem like valuable skills, especially in a money-strapped startup environment where everyone wears several hats.
- alexmat 14y ago
  "Women are also more likely than men to talk through problems." Citation required. Positive stereotypes like this create just as hostile a work environment as negative ones.
  - eliza1wright 14y ago
    Source: http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/curiosity/topics/10-ways-men-women-comminucate-differently.htm http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/curiosity/topics/10-ways-m... The author cites several studies to back up those assertions. Agreed on the positive stereotype bit, though--I think people rely far too much on anecdotal evidence simply because the way that people talk is difficult to distill and quantify.
AustinGibbons 14y ago
There are dozens of claims that it is good for women - STEM is a desirable field - yet artificial barriers to entry are created by gender roles. Further, women in technology and leadership positions has been correlated with business success: http://reclaimingleadership.com/why-you-need-women-leading-in-your-organization-%E2%80%93-a-summary-of-the-data-2/ http://reclaimingleadership.com/why-you-need-women-leading-i...

Jemaclus 14y ago

I'm not sure this has anything to do with attracting women to web development. These women were already attracted to web development -- or they wouldn't be in Girl Develop It or any of those other groups, right? This is about DevBootCamp patting themselves on the back for meeting their quota. And regardless, this whole "invite women first" thing doesn't really address the basic gender imbalance problems in the industry. In my experience (and I'm aware that this is perfectly anecdotal), the problem with getting women to be professional web developers has more to do with the industry's attitude toward women and less to do with inviting them in. It does no good to invite 60% women to a conference if they're all going to be treated badly or like sexual objects the entire time. I have two female friends that I am mentoring in web development, and they are super ecstatic to have this extra skill, and they're actually pretty good at it (better than some of my male coworkers, if I'm being honest). But most often they go to conferences and get dismissed because they're women or get harassed because they have boobs (even though some of these men have bigger man-boobs). I hear this over and over again: they don't feel comfortable at industry events or even in the workplace TL;DR - I don't think it's about "attracting" women so much as making the industry gender-agnostic. It shouldn't matter whether I'm male or female, so long as I put out good code.

mnicole 14y ago
Great response. At RailsGirls PDX they asked how everyone had found out about the event. I'd found out through a female dev mailing list I'm a part of, but I was really happy to learn that many - if not most - of them had been encouraged by male co-workers, friends and significant others who knew the girl had an interest in dev or just tech, but were intimidated (even by other female developers) and thus didn't take part in existing communities.
redsquirrel 14y ago
There's definitely some "patting ourselves of our backs" going on here. I was surprised and proud that we surpassed the ratio that we set for ourselves. I figured I'd share what worked for us. Getting more women to show up may be the easiest part of "changing the ratio". We have lots of other work to do in order to make this stick, which includes working with employers to ensure our students, regardless of gender, are successful after they're hired.

gyardley 14y ago

Pairing an activity with another highly-gendered activity will most definitely change the gender ratio of your combined activities. Here 'yoga' is playing the role 'pizza and beer' does at most hackathons - I know there's tons of exceptions, but generally speaking, women like yoga more than men, and men like eating pizza and drinking beer more than women. I bet you could adjust the gender ratio even more if you mixed in more female-leaning activities - for instance, you could bring in a pedicurist. The social engineer in me wonders what our profession would look like if every technical course over a couple of decades was followed by getting your nails done and a wine tasting.

dfxm12 14y ago
Well, their stated goal is a 1:1 ratio of men to women. While their actual result of a 40/60 men to women ratio is closer to their goal than their estimated 85/15 ratio, they still didn't reach it. If having a predominately male crowd at a hackathon is a bad thing, doesn't it also follow that having a predominately female crowd is bad as well? N.B.: I wouldn't call 40/60 predominate, so to me, it seems like their methods were nearly good enough.
- gyardley 14y ago
  Oh, I wasn't making any judgements. Male crowd, female crowd, whoever the organizers want at their event is perfectly fine by me - after all, it's their event. I'm just interested in the tools they use to get wherever they want to be.
mnicole 14y ago
I'm going to be the jerk that says using yoga and pedicures as a means to bring women in might actually be more alienating than welcoming to many of us. I have no interest in any of those activities intermingling, and I think it sends a message that we need to "genderize" things to make them relevant or appealing. Now, even though I'm theoretically being targeted, I feel even more like the odd [wo]man out. Sell me on the fact that I'll be leaving with a product I want to make - something generic like a blog or a store or a social media site. Sell me on the fact that I will be able to know how to design it, maintain it and expand on it by graduation. Sell me on the fact that I'm also going to be around total novices and where gender ratios are equaled out. Show me success stories of men and women alike. Everyone has ambitions and dreams. Not everyone wants to do poses and color their nails.

SkyMarshal 14y ago

One of the best comments on this topic I've seen was by a girl at Stuyvesant on learning computer science: "Before taking the mandated Intro class last year, when I heard 'computer science,' I pictured nerdy boys, who turned into nerdy bearded men, slouched over huge computers and click-clacking out codes that meant nothing to me. There’s nothing wrong with nerdy boys, comp sci just didn’t seem like something I would ever be interested in. "This image was quickly shattered in that first intro class. Computer science started to resonate with me when I worked on my first project, creating a simple animation of a string quartet using Netlogo. It was while I was working on this that I realized comp sci isn’t about nerdy boys sitting at computers and coding out nonsense that turns into violent video games and complicated math problem solvers. No, comp sci isn’t this at all. Comp sci, as I have found in my classes at Stuy, is a medium for expression, a place for creation and creativity." http://betabeat.com/2012/06/real-tales-of-learning-computer-science-as-a-high-school-girl-stuyvesant/#slide2 http://betabeat.com/2012/06/real-tales-of-learning-computer-... This is both true, and probably effective for changing women's perception of the field and attracting more to it.

cousin_it 14y ago
Wow. Now I wonder why it took me so long to see this answer, it's so obvious in retrospect. Of course women don't go into CS in large part because they consider male nerds unattractive. Though male sexism is an important reason, I always suspected that it's not the main reason. This explanation sounds offensive, but to me it's quite uplifting. Instead of giving women gifts to compensate for our "creepiness", we need to become non-creepy, and women will come. It's a winning proposition for everyone, no?
- WalterSear 14y ago
  You aren't creepy. This particular issue is reverse sexism. But heaven forbid it should ever be seriously discussed while there are all those 'neckbeards' out there to point fingers at.
  - cousin_it 14y ago

bvcqw 14y ago

We don't need more people to flood the market lowering wages.

sixbrx 14y ago

I misread this as "How to attract women to web developers". Boy was I disappointed...

zeidrich 14y ago

If I wanted to take up a hobby or skill that I felt was sort of "woman's only" thing, like knitting, I would be uncomfortable joining a stitch 'n bitch group initially, and I'm sure a lot of women would have reservations about a guy popping in to their knit nights. I'm sure some would be thrilled that a guy would take an interest, but it would be a novelty. I would happily learn on my own through Internet tutorials, but I wouldn't have a support community to learn from and bounce ideas off. I think the same sort of feeling would surround women trying to break into a male-dominated activity. I try to think about what might convince me to take steps into a knitting program (assuming I actually wanted to learn). If I expected that it would be completely women I would be more uncomfortable, but if it was more 'professional' and less casual, I would probably be less anxious. I think a professional environment with a sort of "we're here to learn, not chat, not network" would make things easier because there's less social pressure, it's more focus on the task. Likewise, I think a "Beer and Pizza knitting workshop" would be as much a turn-off. I think it's just the idea that it's an emphasis on the social side of it. I know what I am doing is socially different, and the more social and friendly the atmosphere is the more awkward it is to picture. For instance, if I'm going to a class, and the image I conjure is a row of desks or something, someone teaching a technique, maybe coming by individually, helping with a difficult process, answering questions. That's pretty neutral, I can picture myself there. If the image I conjure is a bunch of guys standing around the tailgate of a pick-up truck drinking beer, eating pizza, belching, and talking about their colorwork and cast-on techniques, I'm going to feel uncomfortable. Not only that, I'm going to feel patronized by the class. Now, obviously regardless of the circumstances, the class is not going to be at all like either of those images in my head. But what would cause me to choose to sign up or not has far more basis on that picture. I think if you want to encourage women to join your class, advertise it in a way that makes it look like it's not judgmental, like it's not patronizing. Something that's not some apparantly watered down "web design for women" class. Keep it professional, respectful, and above board. Include women in your advertising material. If I wanted to learn to knit, and I came across a class that wasn't billed as a sort of chatty woman's group but instead just a class on techniques; if it made it apparent in their description that men were welcome; and it wasn't directed at specifically ignorant men who wanted to learn so they could say they can do it too; then I would be comfortable going. Past that, I would have to know it exists, so if there was some sort of men's knitting mailing list that I was on, it would be a good place to send it.

bobzimuta 14y ago

I'm exhausted by this ironic and sexist, never-ending debate of the why and how to get more women into tech. If we* want to treat women equally, why is it our duty to provide support structures and incentives? *we as in the general HN audience, which is safely assumed to be largely male

unreal37 14y ago

I would agree that technology (development) is a field that is not always friendly towards women. Being a male dominated field (like construction, auto mechanics, airline pilots, doctors, lawyers, politics are all male-dominated as well) means that ideas from women are sometimes dismissed simply because they are from women, or unnecessary sexual or sexist comments are made that make women not feel welcome. I think that's an area this industry needs to improve upon, being more welcome. But that's not to say it needs to be 1:1. (There's no high-paid profession that is 1:1, is there?) I think it's valid to question that we need to have an equal ratio, although I agree we have to improve a lot.